The pin--what's the point?

"This is not even remotely correct. The whole greek approach to war and their strategic innovation was to avoid any sort of single combat on the battlefield. They fought as a team, the phlanx was a cooperative weapon of mass destruction . . . lots of pushing stabbing, (think of a giant human lawnmower) but no wrestling on the ground. You'd be crushed by the team."
You are right about the Phalanx. But honestly, could it hold for the entire battle, everytime? The battle of Thermopoly came down to single combat. The Spartans and some Athenians held off the Persians for hours having less men and weapons.
Besides, there are numerous examples of Hoplites training in the combat sports. Alexander the Great was a renouned wrestler and Pankratiast who encouraged his soldiers to train in them as well.
By the time it became an Olympic sport, it had evolved, true. And by this time many Generals didn't like the pro-athletes true. But this took hundreds of years.
As of now the accepted belief by the academic comunity(at least those I've talked to) is that it was developed for the battlefield for when the Phalanx was broken and the battle digressed out the formation.

Macedonia was culturally different, almost un-greek. They were more
feudal than republican . . . Alexander was the product of an aristocratic
tradition very different from the city states.

I'm not saying soldiers never participated in combat sports, it just wasn't
important. Farming probably provided them with more useful physical

If you're a 130lb guy who can barely see out of his helmet, how do you
wrestle on the ground while wearing 60lbs of bronze? If you went down,
you were finished.


"Pinning exhibits one of the cornerstone principles of Catch Wrestling= CONTROL"

BINGO! or should I say 'checkmate'! or maybe 'one...two...three!!!'

I can't agree more.

Hard to sub someone from a spadal...

Wow, how much is she outweighed by her male opponent I wonder?

I don't know if she is actually giving up 25lbs


It's also difficult to sub someone from the banana splits, twister, side-mount, and scarf-hold, all common wrestling pins(albeit in jitsu lexicon).

Migo, what is your argument? That the pin is not useful? I am not sure what point it is you are trying to make. Any clarification would be great, thanks.

Right, depends on the pin used.

Speaking of pin ,what's up with the king of catch tournament?

Jake , have you thought about an east coast location?

I am looking at having a North Eastern qualifier and South Eastern qualifier. I am open to suggestions (and funding and sponsors too! LOL)

What about different types of pins? I think the judo rules are more sensible than the wrestling rules for pins. A 3 second hold down does not show as much control as a 25 second hold. In guard, you can control the hips of your opponent and easier direct how the match goes. I don't know why catch still uses old pinning rules. Sports evolve and so must their rules. Complex sports with static rules die out.

Good post hobbit, I agree!

The way Wade pins people, you won't want to be pinned more than a 3 count. Seriously.

Then just tap out if you can't handle the pin.

But do you really think audiences will be excited to watch matches with a 25 second pin?

Keep in mind, the pin count begins when the REFEREE believes the bottom man is incapacitated (i.e., is not being offensive and cannot raise both shoulders from the mat). This is similar to a ref stoppage in boxing and MMA.

If the bottom man is being offensive, or is live (meaning both shoulders do not stay on the mat for more than the ref's 3 count), then there is no problem.

The 12 minute time limit is there for the same reason, today's audience will not watch a 5 hour match like back in the day.

The reality is, professional promotions need to make money or they will cease to exist. This means creating an exciting game that will attract an audience.

"Complex sports with static rules die out."

International Wrestling changes it's rules all the time and we all know how popular freestyle wrestling is as a spectator sport (relative to basketball, soccer, or American football, for example). It seems complex sports with dynamic rules die out too, lol.

What I like about the traditional CACC rules is the laissez faire approach, i.e., the few simple rules. The limited rules plus the inclusion of the 3-count pin promote active, exciting wrestling.

In my opinion, what killed old school CACC was lack of time limits, dishonesty and greed (fixing matches).


There's a thought Migo; what if CACC kept the pin but didn't count guard as a pinning position. That would inspire guys to learn bottom skills, without corrupting the catch style. Something to experiement with IMHO.