Guard or no guard, the ref does not start the 3-count unless the bottom man is incapacitated by the pin (i.e., cannot manuever, escape, reverse) AND the bottom man has both shoulders on the mat for the duration of the count.
This way, pulling an active, live guard does not stop the match while maintaining the integrity of the rules of the game.
Understood.
No, the pin is both shoulders to the mat, incapacitated. Symbology (pack animals in nature lay on their backs, belly up to signify submissiveness), tradition (this is what a pin has generally meant for a long, long time), easy for the audience to identify.
Q: Is it possible to pick someone up for a slam from the rubber guard, a la Quinton Jackson v Arona? I haven't seen it done but I wonder if it could happen.
Are you going to allow slamming Jake?
Cops? This is wrestling though, not RBSD.
Cops also have guns, tazers, batons, handcuffs AND back-up and we won't be allowing those either... Not really sure where you are going with your line of reasoning Migo. I think there have been several solid cases made in this thread extolling the benefits of a pinning provision.
Slamming will be allowed (as long as you don't spike the opponent on their head).
According to whom, for what purpose? Sport, RBSD, for what?
I understand what you are saying, I just don't understand the rationale.
As I see it, ultimately the rules of the sport of Catch Wrestling are: pins, subs, no points. This is a catch wrestling forum and this thread is trying to answer what the point of a pin is.
1) Incapacitation - the bottom man is held and cannot escape, reverse, or mount an offense
2) Display of dominance - the bottom man is controlled by the pinner
3) History - traditionally, the pin is when a man is on his back
4) Promotes active wrestling
If you are talking about the pin in RBSD, there are some applications and sometimes some drawbacks. The spladle was an example given to you for a good RBSD pinning combination way back earlier in this thread.
A nice analogy would be the problems faced by guard-players in RBSD situations (biting, multiple opponents, abrasive surfaces, etc.). Sure the pin isn't a catch-all, just like the guard isn't.
Sorry, I am trying to get what you are saying but I am just not grasping it.
I don't object to slamming, it certainly is realistic, but you might consider a proviso about leaving an arm free or something like they do in Greco. The worst injuries I've seen in grappling come from slams.
Imagine fighting Rampage on concrete. Ouch.
I think that some are forgetting is that there is a difference between resurrecting Catch as Catch Wrestling for the sake of practicing Catch as Catch Wrestling and resurrecting some of its principles and techniques for use in RBSD.
What Catch tournaments should do is hold Catch as Catch Can Wrestling tournaments under Catch as Catch rules, wherein a pin is a method of victory.
If someone wants to develop a rule set which would encourage grappling in a manner that would be best in a RBSD situation, then develop the rule sets and the tournaments and interested people will participate. I for one, would definitely participate in both Catch as Catch Can tournaments as well as any type of Grappling contest that is mostly concerned with developed Grappling skills that are best for RBSD situations.
Please bear in mind that I am not saying that Catch as Catch Can wrestling techniques and principles do not have application in the realm of RBSD, but that Catch as Catch Can wrestling is still a sport which is defined by certain rules, philosophies, etc., among which the 3 second pin is most prominent.
Just my two cents.
So by that criteria, if I can hold someone in a cradle and knee them in the face, then they should give points for the cradle in BJJ?
Most of the fights stopped in the UFC happen when the bottom man is on his back and cut open from GnP, oftentimes when the winner is inside the bottom man's guard.
W. Silva can stomp the living be-jeezus out of a person laying on their back.
Sakuraba can kick the heck out of a person's legs in a similar situation.
I think the pin is catch's simple way of saying that gravity seems to favor the top man in a fight.
ttt
I agree with migo, all the English folkstyle traditions (Collar and Elbow, Cumberland and Westmoreland, CACC) have means of winning that are easily disputed (I slipped, his grip broke before I hit the ground, three points weren't down). However, CACC had a solution, scream bloody murder, beg the fight to stop, submission. No doubting who wone when one guys screaming, "Mother of God please stop"! Also allows for a betting line to develop, very important for the serious sportsman.
I wonder if those that have been playing with the pin or at least seen LEGAL PAIN have an opinion? (wow, it already been almost a year since this post started!)
The Legal Pain series really will change people's opinions of the pin imo. That is an amazing set of DVD's!