The Prophet Joel

The whole text is only three chapters (pages, really).JoelSome of the themes are the ruination that can come swiftly to a complacent, and the need to repent to avoid calamity.Several aspects of this book strike me:o Ascribing calamity as an act from God. It would be entirely consistent with OT prophets to interpret Bangledeshi floods that kill tens of thousands with the wrath of God...or aids. What do you think about ascribing natural phenominon to the wrath of God?o Logic of punishment. Just as we were punished when we were children by parents when we were bad, so are we punished as adults by The Lord when we are bad. The logical fallacy is as follows:"If we are bad then we are punished" does not logically necessitate "If we are punished, then we've been bad."It seems to me that OT logic had the former - that when calamity struck, God must be punishing Israel for her sins.o Need for repentence. I think this act is a natural inclination. It gives a degree of control to a people for disasters. IF we repent THEN god will protect us. God embodies the fate of Israel...so whatever fate befalls Israel must be caused by God. Repenting can offer a people a way to live through disaster.o Prophecy. The last chapter seems to be a prophecy for the Lord himself coming to Jerusalem. The prophecy seems, decidedly, for Israel alone, however. What about us non-Jews? It, again, suggests an everlasting Kingdom being ruled from Zion, from Jerusalem.Joel, Chapter 3: NIV
Blessings for God's People

17 "Then you will know that I, the LORD your God, dwell in Zion, my holy hill. Jerusalem will be holy; never again will foreigners invade her.

18 "In that day the mountains will drip new wine, and the hills will flow with milk; all the ravines of Judah will run with water. A fountain will flow out of the LORD's house and will water the valley of acacias. [2]

19 But Egypt will be desolate, Edom a desert waste, because of violence done to the people of Judah, in whose land they shed innocent blood.

20 Judah will be inhabited forever and Jerusalem through all generations.

21 Their bloodguilt, which I have not pardoned, I will pardon." The LORD dwells in Zion!

...first ten posters get a free can of peaches...

There will non-Jews in the Messianic era, tons of them, they will still outnumber Jews. It is the enemies of the Jews who will be destroyed- and then swords beaten into plows.

I think it's not that whatever happened to Israel was caused by God, but that whatever happened to Israel was caused by Israel distancing themselves from God.

How do I get the can of peaches?

martial_shadow,*hands him a can of peaches*Is that statement you made supported in Joel?

BMac,"but that whatever happened to Israel was caused by Israel distancing themselves from God. "Interesting distinction, though often times God does punish Israel directly, rather than allowing them to be punished through proxy.*hands BMac his peaches*

Jinx,Even though you offered no insight...I am honor bound to hand you some...

I think it was caused by God...he knew that israel was going to distance themselves from him and warned them that they shouldnt through Joel...he informed them of thier responsibility so they would not be unaware....but it was God that was the cause, wether it be directly or indirectly. Israel as a nation was responsible for her actions, as are the individual citizens of Israel..

"Israel as a nation was responsible for her actions, as are the individual citizens of Israel.. "

That is one of the great debates...Israel collectively, or the collection of individuals that make up the abstraction, "Israel".

It seems to me the more ancient writings favor the former - Israel as a whole.

But Joshua, let me ask you something - since plagues and similar catastrophes..invading armies and the like...since these tragedies were ascribed as the result of a sinful nation in the past, is there any reason we ought not continue that tradition?

Was 9/11, as Jerry Fallwell suggests, the result of a sinful nation? That concept is well founded, biblically.

What about AIDS? Same issue.

Jerry Falwell is an idiot

give me my peaches!!

yours in Christ

sherm

I know it has nothing to do with the thread..but any chance I get to call jerry Falwell and idiot..I jump on it.

yours in Christ

sherm

*grabs thread from behind, puts .40 Ruger to thread's temple*

NOBODY MOVE AND THE THREAD DOESNT GET HURT!!

THIS IS A THREAD HIJACKING...PLEASE CALL JERRY FALWELL AN IDIOT AND THE THREAD LIVES!!!!!

First off,

Falwell is a guy that I do not identify with. I think he is a political zealot and typical rich white male who thinks he knows it all.

Is there any reason to think that God would not take his wrath out on a nation today. No, I dont think there is any biblical precendent for that at all. I think if we look we would see that in fact we should expect God to judge nations.

was 9/11 the result of a sinful nation. Absolutely. The wahabist doctrines grown and bred and exported out of the house of Saud are the responsible parties here. It was only a matter of time until we got caught up in it. The rest of the world has had to deal with this, now its our turn.

Maybe its God's way of telling us that Saudi Arabia is not our ally?

I dunno man...sin is responsible as best as I can tell for most of the problems we encounter in our world today. Without sin we wouldn't have these conflicts...so we are all comdemned to begin with. Its only by the fact that Christ bought us with his blood that we were changed from our nature as objects of Gods wrath into Objects of his mercy.



Sherm,Why is Fallwell an idiot? I see his pronouncement as in perfect alignment with biblical interpretation. (I'm not being argumentative. I'm serious here).Oh, and here you go:

basically for the reasons Josh said.

and thanks for the peaches....WAIT I HAVE NO CAN OPENER AT WORK!!!!....NNNOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

Yours in Christ

sherm

JoshuaB,"First off, Falwell is a guy that I do not identify with. I think he is a political zealot and typical rich white male who thinks he knows it all. "Something the matter with being a rich, white male?"Is there any reason to think that God would not take his wrath out on a nation today. No, I dont think there is any biblical precendent for that at all. I think if we look we would see that in fact we should expect God to judge nations. "That's how I see it too. If one carefully reads the OT, he will find that THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT GOD DOES - send plagues and allow enemies to attack!"was 9/11 the result of a sinful nation. Absolutely. The wahabist doctrines grown and bred and exported out of the house of Saud are the responsible parties here. It was only a matter of time until we got caught up in it. The rest of the world has had to deal with this, now its our turn. "Oh, I see...you're turning the tables and blaming the Wahabi's. Well, they are certainly a radical form of Islam that advocates violent Jihad. No question...but did God allow the attack as punishment to a sinful nation? Did it have nothing to do with God?"Maybe its God's way of telling us that Saudi Arabia is not our ally? "I wonder when this country will honestly face up to what a threat Saudi Arabia is...and the factions protected by the Saudi Regime. "I dunno man...sin is responsible as best as I can tell for most of the problems we encounter in our world today. Without sin we wouldn't have these conflicts...so we are all comdemned to begin with. Its only by the fact that Christ bought us with his blood that we were changed from our nature as objects of Gods wrath into Objects of his mercy. "Do you think that many who died in the Twin Towers were not Christians? I bet they were. God lets terrible things happen to Christian and non Christian alike.The biggest difference can be who we are, not what happens to us. As the writer of Ecclesiastes points out, the same fate befalls good men or bad men or beasts of the field.

God certainly does let all kinds of things happen to christians and non christians alike. Hell, he let his own son be murdered we believe, then let most of his son's followers be murdered. Then he let the people that followed them be murdered.


I dont know why people think that because we are christians we should automatically have easy happy go lucky lives. If anything they should be MORE difficult as I see it.

Did God do it? I really don't know. My experience is that God is in control of absolutely everything. God does not DO everything, otherwise we would be pantheists, which we are not. But God controls everything, so he had to know what was going to happen. He didnt stop it...so the question is why did he allow it? As a judgement, hell if I know...but it caught both of our attention, thats for sure. It certainly had something to do with God....everything does.

I pray that one day soon we will realize that the Saudis are out and about causing us a lot more trouble than we'd like to admit...unfortunately, if you and I know...so does the government...people have to learn before anythings going to change in regard to the policy in the arabian pennisula.

Im with you bro.....we all end up in the ground in the end. But the mercy that bestows these people is not the promise of a painless death...but the defeat of death itself has lost its sting.

By the way, Im starting to think if you ever became a christian that you'd have to follow along the lines of reformed theology.

I think Rastus is a Christian..he just doesnt realise it yet ;-]

yours in Christ

sherm

ttt for brother Rastus

yours in Christ

sherm