The Rapture!

Kempowrestler,

The environment can't be one of relative peace and buisness as usual and at the same time be one of chaos and tribulations.

The flood and the fire/birmstone both which represent God's righteous wrath didn't occur AFTER Noah and Lot were TAKEN from the scene.

When the angel told Lot that he could do nothing UNTIL after Lot escape and completely left the scene (Genesis 19:22) and when the Flood did happen to after God SEALED Noah (and his family) in the Ark indicates the coming wrath wasn't for Noah or Lot BUT rather the society in which they lived and the people in that society who were wicked, evil and sinful.

The tribulation or wrath took those people SUDDENLY. It didn't take Noah or Lot by surprise because they were WARNED before hand. And furthermore they were removed from the scene so that the "wrath" wouldn't harm them.

If what Jesus says is true in that His coming will be like that in the days of Noah and of Lot then we can safely say that two separate occassion are hinted or alluded two.

One occassion speaks of time when there is relative peace and business as usual whereas other occassion refers to a time of tribulation and chaos. A single period of time can't be one of relative peace where most everything is find and at the same time being one of complete turnoil, chaos and tribulation.

It is the descriptions that, in my mind make it two separate occassions.

Incidently there are other biblical examples were the "righteous" were "removed" from the scene before "wrath" occured.

"tribulation or wrath "

here is your confusion!

the wrath is part of the Tribulation not the same thing!

the tribulation is 7 years

the wrath is the out pouring from the 7th trumpet (also known as the great trumpet) which is what happens "right" after the harvesting of the elect!

Kempowrestler,

That isn't my point. Whether it is wrath or tribulation neither one could possible occur at the SAME time there is relative peace and buisness as usual.

Jesus in the text makes reference to how the environment will be when He returns. The environment will like that in the days of Noah and Lot: eating, drinking, marrying, buying, planting, selling, building (Matt 24:38; Lk 17:28).

This description doesn't fit an environment of tribulation or wrath even if both tribulation and wrath are separate and distincted from each other.

Are you telling me that 7 years (or however long it suppose to be) of trbulation or the duration of wrath (however long that is suppose to be) is the same in terms of environment and circumstance as what Jesus is describing in Matt 24:38 and Luke 17:28?

Are you telling me that during 7 years of tribulation or during the time of wrath people are going to be eating, drinking, marrying, given to marriage, building, buying, selling, and building basically all the noraml activities of life?

How are they able to do all that IF the very world they know and live in is grasped by 7 years of tribulation OR beseiged by a period of wrath?

the Period of Tribulation is a period of tribulation for the christians, which is 7 years and! Yes there will be selling of goods, marrying, etc. during this time period up until....

the period of wrath, which is an outpouring of God's vengence on those who have turned their backs on him...this is the end of the tribulation period! the bible doesnt say how long this period will last but is part of the seven years!

" the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other"

the som of man comes

his angels with the great trumpet come along with him

the angels gather the elect(christian rapture) two will be in a field one will be taken. they are in the field working! two women will be at the mill grinding! they will be working!

the seventh trumpet is sounded the great wrath

you are still confusing the issue of what the Tribulation is and what the period of Wrath is! they are not the same thing! they are specific things!

KempoWrestler,

No offense my friend but I'm not confusing the tribulation or the wrath BECAUSE I'm not comparing those two to each other. BUT rather I'm comparing those two to the environment or condition in which Jesus is describing in Matt 24:38 and luke 17:28.

You say in essence that during the tribulation period that there will be marrying, giving to marriage, building, planting, selling, etc essentially business as usual?

I disagree. Why?

Because that doesn't describe nor fit a condition or environment of tribulation. During and in a condition of tribulation one IS NOT going to be marrying, given to marriage, buying, selling, planting or any of the usual things they were doing BEFORE the tribulation. If they are then that isn't a condition or environment of tribulation. And tribulation in and of itself has no absolute meaning.

Verse 21 and 24 of Matthew describe to some degree what the tribulation will be like: "A great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time , no, nor ever shall be"

Verse 29 of Matthew describes the environment immediately after the tribulation. This environment will be like this: "...the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light and the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens shall be broken."

Now are you telling me that in either of those conditions people are going to be , eating, drinking, marrying, given to marriage, building, planting, selling, buying, basically and essentially all the things they have been doing?

Tell me how. If you don't mind. Tell me how if my environment is literally an enviroment of tribulation will I be able to do all those things: marrying, given to marriage, building, planting, selling, buying, and the like.

Keep in mind Jesus said this as the days of Noah were so shall also the coming of the Son of Man. Jesus is specifically describing what the environment will be like before His return.

It can't be at the same time an environment or period of business as usual and one of tribulation. It has to be one or the other.

Kempowrestler,

Also one more point. You say that the "tribulation" is a period of tribulation for christians.

Are you sure?

I don't agree.

Building on the same example of Noah and Lot that Jesus alluded to, Peter uses both Noah and Lot as examples preachers of righteousness and righteous people enduring and dealing with the ungodly and wicked. Neither Noah or Lot suffered "tribulation" nor "wrath". Both were delivered from them.

Peter in fact says God knows how to deliver the godly out of trial and reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement.

The tribulation and the following wrath isn't for believers it is for unbelievers and the unjust.

As Abraham said "Will God also destory the righteous with the wicked?

NO! He won't this is why Lot was RAPTURED or REMOVED before trouble and wrath came.

"The tribulation and the following wrath isn't for believers it is for unbelievers and the unjust.

As Abraham said "Will God also destory the righteous with the wicked? "

listen...i don't know why you keep doing this....THE WRATH IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN TO BELIEVERS!!!!!!! that is what Abraham is talking about! not the entire Tribulation of 7 years!

look it really isn't that difficult

yes there will be marrying and drinking just like the days of Noah as per

"For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. "

Can't argue with that it is extremely clear...there will be drinking and marrying just like Noah. This will take place right up until the point the believers are taken (rapture)

however the rapture does not happen until just before the 7th Trumpet is Blown...

"They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

you can choose to use your own ideology of what will be happening at this time. that is your choice. however scripture is very clear when the rapture will take place and that the WRATH of GOD is not the ENTIRE 7 year TRIBULATION!


and yes the "tribulation" will be felt by the believers -

"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[2] spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand"


youc an keep going back to saying but there will be marrying going on at the rapture...and i don't disagree with this at all....so how can that be tribulation? the simple answer is cause the beginining of the tribulation is going to be the "World" persecuting the believers.

Pretjah,

No offense to you but I think you're overlooking my point.

I'm not making a comment per se about either the tribulation or the wrath BUT rather making a specific comment about the environment Jesus is specifically describing in Matt 24:38 and Luke 17:38.

It is impossible for the ENVIRONMENT to be stimulateously occuring as described in Matt 24:38; Luke 17:38 and Matt 24:7-15.

Tell me how can the very same people who are AFFECTED by famines, pestilences, earthquakes, persecution and death (as described in in Matt 24:7-15) also eat, drink, marry, give to marriage, plant, build, buy and sell (as described in Matt 24:38 and Luke 17:38) IN THE SAME TIME FRAME?

My point is if the people are eating, drinking, given to marriage, planting, building, buying, and selling UP UNTIL THEY ARE RAPTURED and the environment is such that it allows them to do those very things THEN...

...the environment CAN'T be one that doesn't support what is stated in Matt 24:38 and Luke 17:38. In other words the environment CAN't be one of famines, pestilences, earthquakes, persecution and death.

Why? because one can't build, buy, sell, marry, eat, drink if they are DEAD, jailed, beaten, sick, driven from their homes, or the earthquakes constantly.

Tell me how can you do all the things described in Matt 24:38 and Luke 17:38 if the environment is like that described in Matt 24:7-15?

It is impossible.

It is clear that different people, different events and different times are being refered to and talked about in Matt 24:1-34 and Matt 24:37-51. The nation of Israel (Who Paul said WILL be saved or redeemed - Rom 11:26) and the Church (which is already saved or redeemed). One will be tested and tried and ultimately saved like described in Matt 24:1-34 (nation of Israel) and the other will be gathered and removed and taken away from the evil to come like described in Matt 24:37-51 (the church, incidently read also Isaiah 57:1).


This is one point I'm making


Incidently the FACT remains that Lot did NOT go through a tribulation (neither did Noah). Both were removed. Period. You can't argue with that FACT both were removed from the scene. Neither were TOUCH by trial or wrath. So say that Abraham was talking just about wrath overlooks the FACT that they were not touch by TRIAL (tribulation) either. This ultimately counters the point your making that the righteous (which Noah and Lot represented) will go through a tribulation before they are removed from wrath. WELL that didn't happen in the case of Noah and Lot both of whom Christ and Peter makes clear reference to. NEITHER one went through a tribulation before they were removed. IF Noah and Lot represent what will happen to believers (who represents God's redeeming grace here on earth) than it is wrong to say believers will go through a trial or tribulation before they are removed. Because NEITHER Noah or Lot went through a trial or Tribulation before they were removed so why would we?

This is the another point I'm making.

Here are some other scriptures to consider.

These are some scriptures which I feel substantiate the point that the Church will be raptured before the tribulation.

Rev 3:10

"Because thou has kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth"

The church is Christ's servants to whom He left his house and gave authority. Each person is expected to do his work and Christ. Christ is on a far journey and He wants His servants to WATCH for His return. His return can be at ANY time. (Mark 13:32-37).

Because the Church was watchful, patient, diligent and busy doing the Lord's work when the Master returned He intents to take His church away from the tribulation that is to come on all the world.

i understand your point completely! trust me i do i've discussed this at length with othershowever what you are doing is taking a concept of what you believe to be trials and tribulations and putting it into scripture!"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."if that is not tribulation and trial...then what is???So Noah & Lot did not go through ridicule and persecution???? however that is beside the point because Christ is only using that as a refrence to tell the people to be ready and watchful..not as an example of what he is going to do!"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. "his elect = those who have been saved!!!! on a side issue you have made refrence to a seperation of Israel and the "church" which is again an ideology that does not "jive" with scripture...read the parable of the wedding banquet....galations and numerous other passages that show the "church" as the continuation of israel! not a seperaton of it! -key point - Abraham's Seed not seeds as per galations 3!

The church is Christ's servants to whom He left his house and gave authority. Each person is expected to do his work and Christ. Christ is on a far journey and He wants His servants to WATCH for His return. His return can be at ANY time. (Mark 13:32-37). come on...this is a ridiculous point...Christ says all of that after saying...when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door.sure it can be anytime...and we won't know the DAY OR HOUR but we will not be taken by surprise because Christ has told us all that has to happen before his coming and gathering of THE ELECT

double post sorry

thes 4 "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

thes 5 "1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."

won't be a surprise to Christians but it will to non christians!!!

Pretjah

Sorry my friend but you're sort of redefining tribulation.

What Noah and Lot went through wasn't Tribulation. And it definitely wasn't tribulation AS DEFINE by the biblical text. Noah and Lot had to endure mistreatment BUT not a tribulation that AFFECT everyone who was living at the time.

Noah and Lot were ridiculed and certainly suffered some degree of tribulation (discomfort) BUT not nearly at the level of the type of tribulation which is said to come to the world and those who are left in it.

The biblical text defines tribulation CLEARLY as well as paints a very distinct and clear picture as to what goes on in the tribulation and who is affected by it.

The tribulation AFFECTS all who live on the earth. Not just one group of people. Furthermore the Tribulation is designed to do a few things one is to stir Israel (the tribulation is called Jacob's trouble) as well as try them that dwell upon the whole earth.

Also I know you say that Mark 13:32-37 reference is a ridiculous point BUT I would encourage you to contrast the point made in that verse (the command Jesus say concerning WATCHING for His return and the CLEAR statement that HIS RETURN can be at anytime) and the point in which you made concerning "when you see these things happening".

Jesus point in Mark 13:32-37 to be EVER watchful, and EVER ready AT ALL TIMES (including now) is of no importance if the environment is NOT one of tribulation (like right now). In other words I or any christian would disregard Christ command to be WATCH and READY NOW (this very moment), because NOW is not a moment of Tribulation.

If ones watchfulness and readiness is depended on the condition of tribulation, this is NOT what Jesus commands. Jesus commands to be WATCHFUL and READY at ALL times (not just during a time of tribulation) because He can RETURN at ANYTIME meaning a period or time of tribulation IS NOT a precondition for His return. You simply can't be watchful and ready and expecting Christ's return during a time or period that He isn't expected can you? Since you say He will return during a time of tribulation then when it isn't a time of tribulation (like right now at this very moment) then I shouldn't be watchful and ready and expecting since He isn't suppose to return during such time right?

See this is why I disagree with the mid or post tribulation for Christian because it goes against Christ very command and reasoning behind the command...you don't know when the master will return.

There isn't a "precondition" to Jesus' return according to what Jesus states in Mark 13:32-37 and other related verses because Christ doesn't make one. Saying He will return during a period of tribulation in essence creates a "precondition". Thus we have to wait first for (and expect) the tribulation before we could later wait for (and expect) Christ return. Once again this isn't the point or the message Christ is getting across in Mark 13:32-37 and other related verses. Christ clearly says we should wait for and expect Him to return. This is where our focus should be in regards to waiting and expectation. The mid-trib rapture takes our focus off of Christ and puts it on the tribulation.

okay...Christ statement of be watchful...was a DIRECT RESPONSE to when will the End come!

the people asked, when will the end come.

Christ said, when you see these things happening now that the end is at hand! Be watchful and live your life accordingly because it is what you are supposed to do! sure the end can come anytime, as long as it is accompanied by the signs that christ gave as warnings. so that the believers will not be caught off gaurd and fall away from their faith. those are the direct things that christ said.

I am not redefining tribulation. i'm simply stating what scripture says about when the ELECT will be GATHERED from the earth. which you have yet to comment on any of the passages of scripture. but have instead based your entire theology on a few misconcieved concepts.

1st and most faulty is a seperation of Israel and the church. there is no seperation!!! the Church is the continuation of God's will! Abraham's SEED per galations!

2nd that the refrence of the time of noah is in regards to specific actions, as opposed to a warning from Christ as to the state of people's mind!

3rd That Christians will not go through trials and tribulations, no where in scripture does any verse state that Christians will not go through trials and tribulations. in fact it states the exact opposite in numerous places. Execution, persecution, temptations, natural disasters, wars, famines. all of these thigns Christians have gone through and will go through up until the day Christ appears on a cloud and gathers his elect!


4th an ingrain concept of what mid/ post trib theology means. "Christ clearly says we should wait for and expect Him to return. This is where our focus should be in regards to waiting and expectation. The mid-trib rapture takes our focus off of Christ and puts it on the tribulation." both of these statements could not be further from scripture!
first Christ doesn't say "wait and Watch" he says GO and DO. and the focus is on christ in the Mid trib as he is our SABBATH(rest) and protection and with out him we would never be able to perservere to the END! which is what the bible also says!!

so please unless you are going to comment on the numerous passages and concepts surronding the the Return of christ and gathering his elect, we might as well stop the discussion, cause all you want to do is continue to say the same unfounded things over and over!

sorry if that sounded harsh...but i'd like you to comment on the facts that


Jesus does say that the ELECT will be gathered when he comes with the great trumpet!

and

Jesus does say that the ELECT will be handed over for persecution, execution,etc. AFTER the ABomination of Desolation!

Pretjah,

You are not being harsh when asking me to comment on Jesus words concerning the elect.

It is a legit and fair to ask me to comment.

I believe that Jesus in Matt 24 as well as in Luke 17 is referencing two different groups of people. The nation of Israel and the church.

The elect is the nation of Israel (this makes sense considering the nation of Israel is also called the chosen people). Since God's promises are always true and since God considers Israel His child, Israel has never stop being God's elect even after as a nation they rejected Christ.

The O.T references the nation of Israel as going through both tribulation and redemption (there are numerous OT references attesting to that).

There are many many promises in the O.T concerning Israel that HAS NOT been fulfilled. And since God's promises are true both promises concerning tribulation and redemption as prophesised towards Israel WILL BE fulfill.

Paul states in the NT (Rom 11:26) that ALL of Israel shall be saved (makes this declaration from the OT) and there shall come out of Zion a deliverer and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

See what alot of people get confused in my opinion in dealing with end time events is not making a distinction with prophecies that deal directly and specifically with Israel. They assume these prophesies were fulfilled with the church. This isn't true.

One prophecy that has yet to be fulfilled is the prophesy of Christ reign over the nation of Israel as King.

The tribulation is designed to do one thing purge Israel and the gathering at that time is designed to do one things save Israel and graffed back to the tree which the gentiles (because of Israels rejection) is ALREADY graffed to (Rom 11:1-36).

This is why the tribulation in the OT is called JACOB'S TROUBLE. Because it is meant for Jacob and it is meant to draw Jacob (Israel back).

The church is already saved. Israel's rejection assured that. NOW God is going to FULFILL His promise to HIS ELECT (Israel) and save them and graf them to the same tree that the gentile believers have been graffed to.

All of what you said about prophesies of Israel - God's People (not a nation) is true!

and as read in galations Israel IS the SEED of ABRAHAM THROUGH CHRIST!!!!

Pretjah,

I don't quite understand your point in your last post.

If you trying to make the case that the prohphesies concerning Israel are fulfilled in the Church this is quite wrong.

Namely because As Paul stated in Romans 11, Israel isn't saved. If Israel is saved through and because of the church THEN Paul wouldn't specifically make mention of a future time WHEN Israel (and he is refering to the nation OF people and not necessarily a nation absent of people) will be saved.

The tree in which the gentiles have been graffed to is a representation of God's people. The nation of Israel (meaning the people) were once apart of the tree. And the gentiles were not. Because Israel rejected Christ they were broken off from the tree. This gave the gentiles an opportunity to be graffed onto the tree. The gentiles were FAR off from and weren't even looking for God. But because of Israel's rejection of the gospel, it was offered to the gentiles, who because of their belief were graffed onto the tree. Now that the gentiles are graffed to the tree, a tree they weren't originally apart of, God will now look to the branch that was broken off, because of their rejection and unbelief. This branch is Israel. This branch will be graffed back onto the tree. In other words saved.

Both the gentiles and the jews (or nation of Israel) are to be apart of the same tree, both are to be God's people. And in order to make them one God allowed the one branches(the jews or the nation of Israel) rejection and unbelief become the means by which He could graft the Gentiles unto this tree or in other word become God's people. And when the fulness of the gentiles has been completed then God will turn and graf to the tree the branch that once was apart of the tree and was broken off.

This is explain in Roman 11.

If the church salvation means Israel is saved then why haven't the Jews excepted Christ? They haven't because as a nation of people they are not saved. The promise which Paul quotes from the OT in Romans 11:26 concerning Israel hasn't been fulfilled YET. It hasn't been fulfilled in the salvation of the gentiles (the church essentially is made up primarily of gentiles and thus is the salvation of the gentiles. The promise that Jesus will be a light unto the gentiles has been fulfilled via the Church because the church represents the gentiles being accepted into the house and family of God). The jews or the nation of Israel WILL be saved and accepted back into the house of God.

This is why a great deal of the end time events and prophecy deal specifically and directly with the house (or nation) of Israel who have YET to be saved BUT WILL BE.

Incidently although some Jews did indeed initially accept Christ most didn't. BUT this was to the gentiles benefit because the gospel the jews rejected the gentiles accepted so for the past 2000 years our so the gospel has been drawing and attracting overwhelming gentiles and thus is overwhelming made up of gentiles BUT during the last days (when the church is rapture because the fulness of the gentiles has come) it will sort of be reverse and it will be the jews to whom the gospel will be preach and it will be the jews who overwhelmingly will be drawn and attracted to it. Some gentiles who are left behind will listen to it and believe it, the gospel that is just like some jews in the early years of the church listen and believed the gospel. BUT overwhelmingly the gentiles who are around will reject the gospel BUT the jews will accept it just like the jews rejected it after the early years of the church and the gentiles accepted it.

I know that was a long winded post BUT it is how the bible describes how God will bring Elect and the redeemed together as one.

dude...okay i understand this is a common belief however it's an incorrect belief.

follow this for me again it's not a difficult concept to see.

God Called Abraham, Through Faith!!!!, to be the Father of his people!

His people are passed through Abraham, Through FAITH, not through race!!!!!!

the people of the Nation of Israel can be saved again "if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again" it they again come to Faith!

""The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[6] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[7] "

the godlessness was turned away from JAcob through Jacob's Faith in the coming Christ, and his sacrifice on the cross for their sins, from Zion, as promised in the covenant with Abraham.

I understand where the concepts you have are coming from...however It is scripturally impossible to Seperate Israel From FAITH!!!! Abraham was saved by faith, The seed of Abraham was passed through Faith, Israel is the Elect of God OLD and New Test. through Faith in Christ. any other interpretation of who God's Elect are is contradictory to scripture!