"Is that all you got Mister Jeff?"
You think this thread is bad? Check out the one on the boxing forum.
TH
AOK, Zeke & GaryG.
Hands over remote
ironically enough jack johnson also drew the color line and refused to fight black fighters as champ
i thought this was about the surfer/singer.. damnit.
Thanks for the heads up.
"ironically enough jack johnson also drew the color line and refused to fight black fighters as champ "
i don't remember this from the documentary last night...though it makes sense if only from the money aspect....he probably "refused" because they kept lining up carppy "white hope" fighters for him to fight for decent money.....
"There are more important things in life than getting along with others, or "going with the flow," honestly."
Obiwan is welcome on ANY thread.
"...and that Dempsey was SERIOUSLY STONE COLE serious about enver facijg Johnson out of fear and out of the chance he may lose and embarass himself."
bs.
Give me one piece of proof that Dempsey ever said he was scared of Johnson.
The guy looked a lot like Wesley Snipes.
"FOR UP WITH EVIL"
OH GOODY!
"Willard beat Johnsin in April of 1915 and thengot beat by Dempsey in July of 1919."
Wow, that's some serious research right thar!
"Dempsey refused to fight Johnson at thattime and Johnson won all his fights from 1915, after the loss to Willard, until 1925"
Hey smarty-pants, you forgot a few relevant facts:
1) From 1916 to 1920 Johnson only fought outside of America.
2) Johnson won 6 fights in 1920 and 1921 - while he was IN PRISON in Kansas.
3) Following his release from prison in 1921, Johnson LEFT THE COUNTRY AGAIN and only fought in Cuba, Mexico, and Canada.
4) Johnson returned to an American ring in 1926 and promptly lost to the immortal Brad Simmons, followed shortly after by losses to Bearcat Wright and Bill Hartwell.
So your "proof" that the great Dempsey "ducked" Jack Johnson seems to be that Dempsey:
NEVER defended his title outside of America against anybody
NEVER defended his title against prisoners in a prison
and
- NEVER defended his title against 40 year-old ex-champs on a 3-fight losing streak.
Wow, that's damning evidence right there!
"Dempsey was champ from 1919 - - 1926. Johnson was goading him and stalking hi mand undefeated all through this time."
Yeah, stalking him FROM PRISON! Perhaps via telescope! And goading him from CUBA, perhaps via telegraph!
Mr. Dempsey Stop I know you scared of me Stop Please take steam freighter to Cuba Stop
"Dempsey, who turned pro in 1914"
Jack Dempsey had his first professional fight in 1911 at the age of 15 under the name "Kid Blackie". Go read his autobiography, or Kahn's excellent "A Flame of Pure Fire".
"originally said that he had turned pro to "teachthat nigger a lesson" meaning he was going to be the white man to lick Johnson in the ring"
Actually, Dempsey said he turned pro because he was a FUCKING HOBO and needed money. Here's what Dempsey himself had to say about why he started fighting: "When I was a young fellow I was knocked down plenty. I wanted to stay down, but I couldn’t. I had to collect the two dollars for winning or go hungry. I had to get up. I was one of those hungry fighters. You could have hit me on the chin with a sledgehammer for five dollars. When you havn’t eaten for two days you’ll understand."
But I like your idea better - Dempsey turned pro to fight Jack Johnson, and then spent his career avoiding Jack Johnson! It's so crazy it just might work!
"Johnson was around all the while Dempsey was in his prime"
All around Mexico, all around Cuba, all around the prison yard...
"dempsey, wjho i am a big fan of, was scared of him and rightfully so. he was toosmall and ahis defense was too bad and johnso nwould have killed him."
His defense was certainly better than your typing ability or knowledge of boxing history.
"history lesson served beeyatch"
I'm sorry, but if you plan on serving me I'm going to have to insist you wear that aborable little French maid uniform.
Let's close with a quote from perhaps the finest of all the turn-of-the-century black heavyweights, the immortal Sam Langford:
"Dempsey is the greatest fighter I have ever seen. He hits twice as hard as Jim Jeffries and is as fast in the ring as James J. Corbett."
- Sam Langford, 1922
But Sam, Dempsey never put up the heavyweight strap in a prison gymnasium! HAHAHAHAAA!
Jack Johnson was not 6'5" !!! He was 6'1" 1/2
If he were 6'5" back then, he would have looked like SHaq does today.. And I saw that fight with Jeffries on tv, it lasted 15 rounds. Johnson just toyed with him the whole fight. He could have knocked his ass out the first round if he wanted to. In the documentary they said he let the fight go the distance because he thought there would be a riot if he whooped Jeffries quickly... makes sense to me
Dempsey was a fan of Sam Langford in return. He was offered a chance to fight Langford in 1916, when Dempsey was still largely unknown. In the 1977 version of his autobiography, Dempsey recounts his trip to New York in 1916 and the attempts to match him by a guy called John The Barber:
"First he wanted me to take on Sam Langford. No way."
In Peter Heller's book "In This Corner", Dempsey said in an interview "I think Sam Langford was the greatest fighter we ever had."
Now that's high praise coming from a guy like Dempsey!
Jack Johnson would have loved to get a shot a Dempsey, but it's doubtful he deserved one at the time.
Rickson.
Gator vs Gator!
"Dempsey, who turned pro in 1914"
vs
"DEMPSEY TURNED PRO AT HEAVYWEIGHT IN 1914"
Presumably he was only an amateur heavyweight prior to that, as well as a professional middleweight!
Cool documentary.
"my mistake and i apologize"
That's great, we're all friends here. Dempsey lived an amazing life, it's hard to even imagine the way he was raised and lived from our space-age perch in 2005. Just imagine being 15 years old, tying yourself to the brake lines under a freight car and riding for 6 hours with the tracks passing under your head just so you can get to another dusty mining town and put in a day's work in a mine for 50 cents. All the men you admire are toughs and gamblers, the most beautiful women you see are all prostitutes, and all you know is you need to get that next 50 cents or you were going to starve in the middle of nowhere without anybody giving a damn. All of today's fighters who bemoan their impoverished upbringing can kiss Jack's leathery ass :D
I THOUGHT IT WAS A GOOD SHOW , I WATCHED IT TWICE!!!
I'm glad Martin showed up and set the record straight. Also good posts by UWE. I enjoyed the documentary, but found it somewhat poorly researched at times. They seemed to just follow along some of the traditional stories that aren't always factual. For instance, Martin correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the story about Johnson knocking out Ketchel's teeth is true. It's tradition "legend" but not true and with a little "real" research would have been recredited.
they were actually white prostitutes. kind of a downer realizing even as hw champ he still had to pay
ttt for Obiwan23's thoughts?
I've learned at least as much from everyones posts as I did from watching the documentary.