Thoughts on Judo Style Butterfly Sweep...?

In Judo, the main sweep from the Butterfly Guard is generally taught that you roll straight backwards onto your back and turn your opponent over, to whichever side you have his arm under control. From what I've seen in Judo books, this is the "original" Judo sweep done from here.

Although there are a number of differnt ways to do the Butterfly Sweep/ Hook Sweep in BJJ., I don't really see this particular version used or taught much outside of Judo.

The BJJ versions of the sweep tend to favor falling onto your shoulder --at more of an angle-- rather than flat onto your back. The usual rationale given against going to your back is that if the person sprawls, you will be suck flat on your back. That is an OK criticism, but ALL sweeps have counters and --on the plus side-- this "Judo" version is simple and powerful since you are lifting with both legs. Plus, the move has been used successfully in Judo since forever, so clearly there are people who have no trouble making it work, so it's perhaps not as easily countered as BJJ people like to assert.

I've only played with it, myself but am interested in learning more about it.

Any thoughts on Judo's version of this technique...?

 

I'd have to see a vid but off the top of my head judo guys might be hitting it off getting thrown or hit with a footsweep from standing, having the benefit of a little extra momentum

as someone who has watched a lot of BJJ instuctionals, what i think you're describing has been taught before. i seem to remember seeing in royler's book back in the day and i think it was even taught by some of the alliance guys. but it's a totally legit technique.

you are right now that most people seem to favor the fall to the shoulder method these days. i think another reason (besides the one you mentioned) is that when you fall more to one side, you have the ability to plant your non-hook leg to provide additional power for the sweep.

tapnaporsnapbro - as someone who has watched a lot of BJJ instuctionals, what i think you're describing has been taught before. i seem to remember seeing in royler's book back in the day and i think it was even taught by some of the alliance guys. but it's a totally legit technique.

you are right now that most people seem to favor the fall to the shoulder method these days. i think another reason (besides the one you mentioned) is that when you fall more to one side, you have the ability to plant your non-hook leg to provide additional power for the sweep.

^ ya planting that spare foot on the ground is the key detail

I think the judo version is good for transitioning into x-guard, single leg X type stuff and modified (shin in) version of waiter sweeps, etc. Your hand is closer to his trailing foot. I think it can add the dimension of being able to sweep in either direction.

However, for the basic butterfly sweep, I prefer rolling onto the shoulder because it allows your bottom foot to be live on the mat (ball of the foot on the mat) and I feel that rotating that foot so that your heel is pointing to the ceiling and your knee to the mat is how you generate the rotational power, which I use the same way in my variation of mount escape:

https://youtu.be/RNznNda_kzs?t=159

Unfortunately I think that a lot of people don't focus on having that live foot and they just rely on rolling over the shouler. 

 

I think a final difference is in the direction of the elevation. In the judo style, you have both legs to bring his weight up, but you have to lift his full weight. In the shoulder roll style, the direction of the force of elevation does not have through his center of mass. It can be more towards his one leg. As he tips to the side and you fall to the side, his weight will be higher up on you.

Former Judo World Champion Craig Fallon has one of the best butterfly sweeps in the world. During his competition days he used it with great success against the best names in the sport. His approach to the sweep is different than the traditional BJJ version and absolute gold in my opinion. I was amazed at the efficacy of it when I started to practice it and had it performed on me. On the website superstarjudo he breaks down his sweep and shows some awesome variations.  

Ole Bischof is another judoka with an amazing ground game who also used his version of the butterfly guard with tremendous success (won gold in the 2008 olympics). His version looks similar to Fallon's, but there are major differences. You can see the strength of Bischof's ground game in his olympic matchup against Travis Stevens .

Good info! 

 

Judo has a lot of "roll-over" turnovers, that use one or two foot-hooks. I think, on the whole, there application is different and better in Judo.

Aaron, do you by chance know can you join that site & pay for one month?

I have a "no pay policy" for grappling videos, but I really want to see that guy's stuff.

shen -


Aaron, do you by chance know can you join that site & pay for one month?



I have a "no pay policy" for grappling videos, but I really want to see that guy's stuff.

Pretty sure you can. Best online site there is in my opinion. I've been a member for six months and I absolutely love it. Everyday I look forward to the new video that is added and every couple weeks a new superstar is introduced. Plus, as a member you get access to many of the DVDs that Fighting Films published (e.g., Koga, Inoue). Here's an example of a clip that is posted daily.

 

Here's another promo clip to give you an example of how awesome this website is.

 

Cool, thanks!

Following Aaron's post... The fighting films kosen Inoue uchimata set is damn good

Lots of great newaza on this site too. Awesome stuff with subtle differences from what we often see in BJJ. The last year I've become a big fan of newaza specialists in judo. Last plug for superstar judo. I promise.

 

I think there actually IS something to techniques which DON'T require you to get an angle on your opponent.

Getting the angle --in any combat sport-- is hard. Having the angle is obviously is what creates a lot of openings for you.  BUT, at the same time, against someone with your same skill set, same level, it can be a real challenge just to create that angle and get that opening. 

The fact that you stay square to your opponent with this version of the sweep, as opposed to creating an angle, I think is an important factor.

 

 

 

The Koga and Inoue dvds are hands down two of the best instructionals out there. They really make BJJ stuff look poor. There's far more depth in the instruction then in any BJJ set I've ever seen. I'm very tempted to subscribe to Superstar Judo for the newaza alone.

James

Marcelo Garcia dvds had a bunch where he would fall back elevating the opponent's hip, then pick a side to sweep.  His variation where he does the straight armbar from butterfly comes to mind.  He sweeps when the  guys defends the straight armbar on the same side as the arm is already trapped.  He also had a lot of variations where he would grab the belt trapping the arm, fall backwards, then sweep.

Found something similar (around 2:30)

 

I think everyone should fall slightly back and then to the side. I guess this is 'wrong', but yeah. 

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