Personally, I don't quite understand this rationale when discussing whether an art/sport would be good in a self-defense/fight situation. Unless you spend your entire life hanging out by the pool, at the beach or at a nudist colony, chances are, when you get attacked, the guy coming at you will be wearing some form of clothing. In other words, training with a gi IS relevant for self-defense. Also, I would bet most assaults take place at night as well so odds are, the other guy will be wearing a jacket or something like that (since it'll be cooler).
The gi is also revelent in that it makes it easier to learn Judo in general. You can learn a wider range of movements with the gi, and more quickly understand the principles involved in throwing and ne waza.
The gi also makes throwing practice safer, as it is easier to control uke.
I would run away like hell anyway if anyone attacked me butt naked in a crouching wrestlers stance. A kickboxing stance would be entirely different.
ditto to these posts.
saying judo is gi dependant is saying that bjj is too gi dependant.
both can do much without the gi.
which btw is also working against us too. its much easier to counter or stop a guy trying to throw you if you can grab HIS gi.
this is such a straw man argument, usually made by other grapplers that cannot throw effectively.
are you saying that you WOULDN'T run for the hills if some butt naked dude came up to you and got into a kickboxing stance?
I don't know about you, but there's no way I'm going to fight a naked guy. I don't want the cops finding me wrapped up with him, rolling around on the ground, no way, no how!
I like the challenge of training with a gi. Plus, like what is said more people walk around with clothes on. Maybe, training in street clothes wouldn't be so bad. But even that seems a little unnecessary.
I AGREE WITH EVERYONE HERE WITH A BIT OF A TWIST.
WHEN I WALK OUT OF THE DOJO, I NEVER LEAVE WITH THE MINDSET OF GRABBING SOMEONE'S CLOTHES.
INSTEAD, I ALWAYS THINK ABOUT CLINCHING SOMEHOW SO THAT I DON'T GET STUCK IN THE MINDSET OF
AUTO-MATICALLY REACHING FOR A LAPEL THAT MIGHT NOT BE THERE (OR ONE THAT RIPS IN HALF).
BUT IF ITS THERE, I'LL USE IT!!
The belt or waist line of pants will most likely always be there but takedowns that are shot in from the outside are less risky than clinching imo.
I did newaza earlier today with a partner who only wore a t-shirt, I kept my gi on. He's a martial artist but not a judoka. It's tough looking for another handle when you're used to a gi but I nice challenge. I used his belt , I mean an actual belt too, for control and really wrapped that t up. I had the position for kata juji jime but I think I bunched the t up too much. So I tried to attack from the back with hadaka jime. I kept working it but time ran out, so we left it at that. I guess it's okay sometimes to train like that but you lose other techniques imho, which takes away some of the challenge and fun. Plus, I think my partner short changes himself because he won't learn the other techniques without gi training at least I don't think he will.
I agree with you Your Father
Should be: "Your Father is correct". I'm guessing Liuke can't be too far behind.If you attempt to throw someone in a sweater or collared shirt, competition style, their clothes will surely rip before you are able to complete the movement.Not at all. You don't throw your opponent by lifting them by their clothing.; the grip is more for control. The effectiveness of a throw is through leverage and balance. If you did judo you would have a better understanding.
FINALLY I thought "Your Father" was about to say something intelligent but true to form he come off as a jerk by saying how much more a BJJ gi was better than a Judo gi. Geez, what a f--kin idiot. Dude, you are a loser. Don't you have anything better to do with your life? Seriously, what a pinhead.
Anyway, a gi does help you learn the throw easier but on the street all you have to do is just CLINCH. That is it. Nearly every throw can be done from a clinch. It is the leverage and off balancing which makes the judo throw work.
Dont worry too much about all this gi no gi stuff. If you are decent at judo, this will come naturally to you, especially if someone tries to grab you.
Your Momma with bjj lower belt myth #67 - training with a gi is good in newaza but standup should be done without. I don't think you will see judo guys with any respect trolling the bjj forum, so what are you doing here goof?
OK, how about this, My sport of preference is no-gi bjj, I just enjoy it more and compete often,never had an interest in judo but recently I caught the Judo bug, the throws are awesome,
my question is what pertentage of techniques are completly reliant of the gi or can they all pretty much be modified for submission competitions (not mma/streetfighting)
"my question is what pertentage of techniques are completly reliant of the gi or can they all pretty much be modified for submission competitions (not mma/streetfighting)"
Good question ! Not many. Throws like Morote Seoi Nage come to mind, although there is a way to do it without the gi, it would look like a strange Ippon Seoi Nage.
From what I have seen of submission competitions, doing "standard" Judo throws would be pretty tough, but not impossible. I think the range of techniques and entries you could do would be more limited than in say a Judo shiai. This is partly because of lack of judogi, but mostly due to the different rules. A big throw won't win, unless you happen to knock the guy out or dislocate a shoulder/crack ribs...which is not too likely because you don't want to kill the guy and there will be some kind of mat or spring loaded floor from what I have seen. The postures I have seen in submission grappling events is more wrestler-like, which will narrow down the range of entries and setups to use. That combined with dealing with a slick, sweaty body will make throwing in that venue different than judo randori or shiai.
Self defense is another world from MMA, submission wrestling, or NHB. The aims and purposes are different, and the type of opponent you face will be different. In the above types of CONTEST, two trained fighters who are prepared to battle under a set of rules with a time limit. In self defense, you are fighting for your bodily integrity and/or your life, the attacker doesn't know your capabilites, weapons may be involved, rules are not applicable (other than things like lethal force application after the fact), and YOU don't want to be there. A wider range of Judo techniques are applicable, though may not be necessary depending on exactly what happens.
Sojourner wrote:""Not at all. You don't throw your opponent by lifting them by their clothing.; the grip is more for control. The effectiveness of a throw is through leverage and balance. If you did judo you would have a better understanding."
Exactly ! If a person is good at Judo, and has absorbed the principles of throwing, and has practiced a wide range of techniques, then the presence or absence of clothing isn't going to matter a lot. Leverage, balance, and body control/movement is what counts the most. If you don't have those, wearing a loose judogi or not won't matter...you won't be able to throw anybody. I think this is what many people miss in this sort of "debate".
Obviuosly, throwing a sweaty, strong and skilled mostly naked wrestler in a sport submission grappling match is going to be harder and less effective than throwing some idiot on the street who grabs both your collars and tries to shove you into the wall.
Your Father wrote:
""If the gi didn't matter, then the degree of slack present in it wouldn't be a factor in competition. The reality is, it is very important for gripping and leverage.""
This is true, the judogi is important for gripping and leverage. The degree of slack is a factor in competition, but not the overriding factor.
"And I have done Judo. "i have thrown a guy with morote seoinage with a shirt before. I don't buy your statement that street clothes will negate the throw.""
YF:"That's because you are referring to a particular throw that doesn't require the full use of the gi. "
YF, you are incorrect in this statement. Morote Seoi Nage does indeed require the full use of the gi. Maybe your are thinking of Ippon Seoi Nage, which requires no judogi at all to do.
"Not everyone can go around expecting to catch their opponent with just a morote seoi nage. I consider it a fairly reckless throw anyway."
YF, are you talking about a judo match, self defense, or a MMA/sub wrestling match ? In the context of a Judo match, it is not a wreckless throw. It can be very effective. In a judogi-less competition of any sort, yeah, it's ridiculous.
"in competition judo, often the gi will come undone when a throw is executed. but the throw still works. if a guy had a shirt on and it ripped, you still can continue on and execute the throw. This is my experience with it."
YF:"The gi comes undone once the throw is already being completed. When using the gi as leverage, your grip must remain in tactic, or else your base is effected. As someone who suppossedly studies Judo, I am a bit surprised by your knowledge on this."
This is absolutely incorrect, YF. The judogi is very often already very loose, untucked out of the belt on one or both side and the back. People still get thrown very effectively..in terms of Judo matches, Ippon is scored all the time by throwing when the judogi loose and outside the belt.
gi sucks..all of them, even the tailor fitted BJJ ones that they changed to avoid getting thrown on their heads...
Your Father: Things can get a little heated on this discussion site, but not just on the judo forum. Most of the people on this forum tend to be nice though. Ben Reinhardt and cm81 are examples of judokas whom I have great respect for and they speak the truth. If you want to filter out the truth from the bullshit, listen to them.
There are of course many more people like that here, but they are too many to mention. Joshua, sojourner, quincy, Osaekomi come to mind, but I'm forgetting a bunch anyway. I might as well, for I don't want to sound like I'm giving a thank you speach at the Oscars.