What do you consider poor etiquette when you're training?
A lot of the intructional materials I read (i.e. Bas Rutten, Mark Hatmaker etc.) endorse cross facing, but I've heard some guys consider it cheap or dirty when you're just sparring. Is it really considered gooning? What if you're using it when you sprawl? Or when you frame to escape from the bottom?
Then there's neckcranking and leg/ankle locks. Some guys don't want to train these, which is fine. But when you DO use them in training, how far do you really go before you let go? Should I be just be barely cranking the hold, or not at all? I know to let go whether the guy taps or not, but I want him to know I had him or vice versa.
I'm willing to be on the receiving end of all of the above and even other shit that some consider gooning (like digging into ribs or eye sockets with you chin or elbows). As long as I'm not getting injured I don't give a shit, it just make me tougher. I'm not in it for sport. I just want to be able to kick anyone's ass that fucks with me. But at the same time, I don't want to lose any training partners or piss anybody off.
I just think there's a lot of training versatility, being lost out on, by not incorporating cross face techniques, leg/ankle locks and neck cranks into submission training. What do you think?
What do you consider poor etiquette when you're training?
If I am training with friends, I will use those things but not grind away with them. And if it looks at all harmful, I will let go rather than force the issue.
IMHO, unless you're preparing for something major and need to simulate it, there's no need to speed your training partners' onset of repetitive stress injury.
Common sense is the best etiquette
thats the truth,Scarface this sport is for common sense
If your in someone's guard Never, I repeat Never pick them up and slam them into the ground/mats.
Also no heel hooks, these are devasting and can ruin someone's training time for months.
Don't use small joint manipulation, on the street go ahead.
In the club everyone is friends and those are the people that make you better so you dont want to hurt them or put them out of training.
Victory laps should only be taken after making sure your opponent has regained consciousness, lest he miss the spectacle.
...so then how do you know if you're capable of executing a heel hook? Of course I don't want to cause any injuries, and yeah, common sense factors in to not slamming someone into the mats or breaking their fingers. But common sense is kind of an easy answer...but I still don't know if it's acceptable to cross face someone in order to get his chin to come up for a rear naked.
I agree with Joe and I would like to add the fact tha common sense would be the best except for the fact that common sense is infact NOT common!
Nothing wrong with cross facing.. it's a wrestling technique
There are a few particular guys at my club who always use the cross face. I resist it and then the GI will give me a rash most of the time. This rash always look nice as I attend work meetings. Try to explain that to people you don't know. Thos who use the cross face a lot usually get a certain stigma associated with them at clubs. "dirty fighter, so and so is to rough, nice face you must have been rolling with Ge%#y"
That shit grows old and is usually not appreciated by the guys getting crossed faced as we have jobs, teeth, and hate being injured by over the top antics of some people on the mats.
Fateh and the rest of the guys say I have to at least wear underwear now...
A cross face isn't dirty, its how it is applied that can be a little un-called for. We use heel hooks but again just to position, no need to crank anyone's knee but some of that responsibilty falls on the guy who was caught as well. Once you have a good relationship with the guys in your gym, neck cranks, heel hooks and cross faces shouldn't be an issue becuase when you caught just tap to avoid injury but you must trust the person applying the moves.
Thanks Scarface, that's exactly what I wanted to hear.
Wiley, BigKiller, I appreciate your feedback too.
Muscle and strength only go so far in a fight. Sure on the street between 2 guys fighting it goes a long way if they are unschooled/not trained. But once you fight someone who isn't gonna tap/budge his face because you cross face him then you better have some sort of back up plan. And thats when Technique comes in handy. I get crossed faced steady by a certain person I won't mention "Ge#2y". And it makes me better for having it done all the time. But now someone can put pressure on my face and I usually dont budge. They waste time, strength, energy and get a certain title given to them all at the same time. Then once they make a mistake a more technical person capitalizes and the fights over. One mistake usually determines my matches.
So being cross faced helps me out in a sense,as it toughens me up, makes me use it by now. But that stuff grows old.
And BGKILLER was right about one thing as well. I am better than him in jiu jitsu. I am messing with BIGKILLER, its true about what he says. Because he's bigger if he uses strength, size, and weight against me all the time he learns nothing. He uses technique, skill and when he needs to the appropriate amount of strength in a burst or split second to finish the opponent.
I guess I am speaking more from a sport jiu jitsu sense, but I hate it just as much in submission wrestling in the club.
Wiley is bang on.
if you're close to the same size/strength i'd say anything is fine except heelhooks. complaining about 'cheap' stuff when you're within 50 pounds of the guy is just an excuse for having poor technique to counter said stuff.
Anybody who opposes Wiley on this subject obviously doesn't know about the secret handshake.
I think it is amusing how a cross face is no longer a technique to some.
Yeah, me too. It can help you avoid takedowns, set up submissions, and escape positions.
I think it's time to man up, girls. You're training might be suffering. What's gonna heppen if you go to a tournament and you get cross faced there? Oh, right...the secret handshake.
I hear what you're saying BigKiller. But if you had me in an arm lock, I'd tap. If you cranked my neck with a GOOD cross face, I'd tap then too. If I didn't, I would very well expect you, to either move on to something else because you couldn't get it tight, or start cranking harder. If I got hurt from not tapping, it's my fault, not yours.
Let's say we were to spar. You out weigh me by like 60 lbs. If you managed to crank my neck with the same cross face over and over again, I'll be damned. I think eventually, I'd be able to counter your setup. And to me, that's learning. You, on the other hand, would learn how to either counter that, or use it to transition to something else.