I just spent the past 15 min or so typing up my commentary about ChrisD's rather careless statement dismissing Talhoffer, but it got "lost"! I really hate when that happens. In any case, I gotta get to work (my late day), and so I'll have to reply to that tonite. If the thread is dead by then, I'll just start it up again, because there are some EXTREMELY IMPORTANT points to be addressed here. Talk with you soon.
ttt
Hello Kai,
Once again, sorry for being tardy! I feel bad since it appears that you stayed up rather late waiting for my reply. My evening just did not go as planned...
In any case, this is what I can tell you about leads with sword and dagger and sword and buckler. It's pretty clear that the basic stance in older styles of European swordplay was more "square" than what is seen in modern fencing, because of both the use of the free hand (whether armed or not), and the different method of movement (modern fencing is almost totally linear, whereas the older methods involve a lot of circling and traversing [sidestepping]). That being said, we can take a look at what various masters show in their manuals. In this description, I will be assuming that the swordsman is right-handed.
Marozzo's fighters appear to lead alternately with either the sword-hand or the dagger/buckler hand.
Other masters that show a sword-arm lead include Camillo Agrippa, Camillo Palladini, and, as ChrisD mentioned, Joachim Meyer.
The problem with interpreting periods manuals is that, as John Clements pointed out, it is often not even clear as to whether what is being shown is a "strike or a parry", for example. With Marozzo, especially, so many of his "guardia" appear to be merely transitional positions (as opposed to actual en guarde stances) used during the course of a fight--almost as if he is trying to show movement with static drawings.
Terry Brown talks about how many of the old masters often advocated left-hand leads for certain occasions. His own conclusion, which he says he reached after much experimentation with contact sparring, is that he very much prefers the sword-hand lead (as most of us seem to do). He talks about the apparent weaknesses of left-hand leads, pointing out, for instance, the problem of a buckler obstructing one's vision (though interestingly [and properly] enough, di Grassi's manual actually has an illustration that shows how to properly hold the small square buckler, so as NOT to obstruct one's vision).
I am of a like mind with Brown about leading with the sword-hand, but mainly because it is what I am used to, as a carry-over from modern fencing and my Filipino training. I am not certain as to the supposed "weaknesses" of the left-hand lead, since I am not a 15th-17th century sword master. I can only go by what I already know and understand. What I do find interesting is that, in FMA, our triangular footwork seems to resemble a lot of the footwork in old Renaissance fencing--when I step in to execute a certain simultaneous counter-hit and disarm (say, a defense of a #2 strike to the head), I "pass" my left leg forward to close the distance. This looks a lot like the "passing" steps used in Renaissance Europe. Depending upon the particular manual, a lot of the "left-hand leads" may in fact be illustrations of tranistional "passing" moves.
Ye Lunatic and myself have taken our fencing and FMA training and experience, and we have coupled that with our examination of old singlestick and heavy saber manuals, in an attempt to better understand old English singlestick fencing. We have found that the sword-hand lead definitely works best for us, but that we also often find ourselves using the "passing" footwork of Renaissance fencing and FMA, in addition to the "non-passing" or "crab-shuffle" footwork of modern fencing. There are times when you have to increase or decrease the distance very quickly in singlestick, and modern fencing's footwork does not allow you to do so. Also, when an opponent in singlestick tries a hamstring blow to your knee, the correct reply is the so-called "shift the leg", where you step back with you lead leg to get it out of the way, and simultaneously execute a cut to your opponent's head (the head is left open when you go for a leg shot). This is almost like "passing" backwards. FMA also uses a variation of this leg-shifting defense.
The big problem with a
I work at an art museum with a wonderful matched set of Italian horseman's and footman's armor, it includes the horse armor as well, 1540's.
The owner (both suits were for the same man) was about 5 foot 4, maybe 140 pounds. He looks fit.
We also have Samauri armor, (only one suit 1740's)the owner was possibly a very slim 6 foot. Maybe 150 pounds -- I said slim!
Just food for thought.
ttt
Rikuo,
I believe I can answer all of your questions (in reverse)...
3. The SCA guys are fat simply because they are.
2. Yes, ninjas can only be killed by other ninjas--c'mon, bro, do you really even have to ask that? :-)
1. Samurai vs. European swordsmen--well, we can get some idea about this, because there actually WAS some combat between Sino-Japanese pirates and Spanish troops in the Phillipines during the 1570's. The notorious Chinese pirate Lim-Ah-Hong, along with his literal partner in crime, the Japanese raider Sioco, took their band of not-so-merry men to the Phillipines in 1574, to attack Manilla. Lim-Ah-Hong and Sioco had some 62 armed junks and around 4000 men. The first pirate attack on Manilla was repulsed by the Spanish, though with heavy loss of life. The corsairs were preparing for a second assault when they were intercepted and defeated by a combined Spanish and allied Filipino force commanded by Juan de Salcedo.
Lim-Ah-Hong and Sioco eluded capture by the Spanish, and took several Filipino chieftains hostage. Salcedo and his men took the pirates by surprise and destroyed his fleet. However, the pirates had built a fort, and they held off the Spanish and Filipinos for four months, which gave them enough time to build a sufficient number of boats to escape the Phillipines. They never returned.
We can postulate that Spanish infantrymen (sword-and-buckler men, halberdiers, and arquebusiers and/or musketeers), supplemented by allied Filipino warriors (armed with spears, shields, and swords of various designs--like the kampilan and talibon) fought against Lim-Ah-Hong's and Sioco's men, who were a mixture of Chinese and Japanese freebooters. Such warriors would have been armed with Chinese curved sabers, spears, bows and arrows, katanas, naginatas, and perhaps no-dachis too. Since the Japanese had been exposed to European matchlocks since the 1540's they may also have had arquebuses. While Sioco's Japanese were not samurai per se, there is no reason why various ronin or other samurai who had fallen on hard times could not have been among his warriors.
One thing that is clear is that there must have been much hand-to-hand fighting. Firearms no doubt played a part on the attacks on fortified positions, but matchlocks are slow to load, and in the Phillipine jungles, swordsmen and spearmen would have proved most useful to all three parties involved. Men were killed on both sides. Neither the Japanese, nor the Spanish, nor the Filipinos were supermen. All of their fighting styles and weapons had advantages and disadvantages. But the fact remains the Sioco and Lim-Ah-Hong were defeated, and they never returned.
Thanks for the Silver quote, Jared!
Ye Lunatic--
Check out Sled Dog's faulty info on the London Masters vs. the Italian rapier men on noble 1's "English Weapons" thread on the "Weapons" Q & A. Pretty funny.
Rikuo, please don't ask those first 2 questions. They make my head hurt!
The last question is actually a very good one and it has perplexed me for years.
#3. They didn't do aerobics in medieval times??
A medieval knight could do a cartwheel (ala BJJ) wearing 60lbs of plate armor.
An SCA guy can eat 60lbs of corned beef hash, on a really big plate (porcelain, not armor).
This thread is educational! However, at this time I must raise important questions:
HOW WOULD A SAMURAI FARE AGAINST ANY OF THESE EUROPEAN TYPES?!?!
IS IT TRUE NINJAS CAN ONLY BE KILLED BY OTHER NINJAS?!?
and finally,
WHY IS EVERYONE IN THE SCA SO FAT, LOL
...j/k! Well, maybe not the last one. Heheheh!
"Just as divinity protects the soul from hell and the devil so too does the noble science of self defense protect the body from wounds and slaughter."
George Silver
By the end of this year, I should have a Master's degree in UNarmed combat.
ttt