"Trusting God gives no assurance"

Ah, but here is the rub. God did not say, "I am going to wipeout the Jews, unless you pray"! He said, "I am going to wipeout the Jews!"

He did not wipeout the Jews! That is what I am pointing out!

You asked "was he lying *or* did he change His mind?" That's a False Dilemma!

I say there is a third option! That option is that there is an implicit condition that Moses fulfills. The only difference is that you insist that God did not know he would pray, and thus fulfill the implicit condition, and I say He did! You have only exposed your, and my, presumptions. We are no closer to answering whether or not God knew.

BTW: Not only are you creating a "False Dilemma" but you yourself have to appeal to an implicit condition in God's statement to avoid making God out to be a liar!


Also, your statement about God willing mercy and being incapable of acting against His nature only more firmly supports the notion that there is an implicit condition in His statement.

And since when do you care what traditional Christianity says about anything?

There's nothing new in that post. I mean, you're not dealing with the points I made in my response about God's hand being forced by his own decree's.

You rejected the idea of God's hand being forced and I thought it was agreed that this was the crux of the matter. I believe I have shown that God's hand can be forced (only by his previous decrees) and yet you have gone back to saying how God is implicitly asking them to pray.

Of course if God's hand CAN be forced, then the implicit point holds no merit, which is why it's so vital that you rebut that point if we are to continue.

"That is the only way that either of us can avoid the charge! "

Neither of us would avoid the charge, both of us would have to believe it.

There's nothing new in that post because you still don't understand. Not only are you creating a "False Dilemma" but you yourself have to appeal to an implicit condition in God's statement to avoid making God out to be a liar.

The difference is that you insist that God did not know he would pray and I say He did! We are, still, no closer to answering whether or not God knew.

Also, I have addressed your statement regarding God's nature being immutable. I said that your statement about God willing mercy and being incapable of acting against His nature only more firmly supports the notion that there *is* an implicit condition in His statement.

"I will wipeout the Israelites *unless* you pray, because, my will is to give mercy and if you pray I will stay My hand."

See? What you have added is the 'why'. What you have said is why the implicit condition works! His immutable nature, specifically His desire to show mercy, only shows more clearly that implicit in His threat there laid a condition. How it is that this is not clear is baffling to me.

And you said, "Neither of us would avoid the charge, both of us would have to believe it." I can only guess that you misunderstood what I meant by "That is the only way that either of us can avoid the charge!"

What I mean is that If God's threat did not contain an implicit condition than your view makes God out to be a liar just as much as my view. But we both say (for you *are* saying that God's threat contained an implicit condition, whether you understand it or not) that God did have an implicit condition and so I said "That [that = accepting that God's threat contained an implicit condition] is the only way that either of us can avoid the charge [of making God out to be a liar]."

And so I still say that we are, still, no closer to answering whether or not God knew before hand whether or not the implicit condition would be met by Moses.

"I will wipeout the Israelites *unless* you pray, because, my will is to give mercy and if you pray I will stay My hand."


I don't think it is neccesarily his active will at the time to give mercy, but instead his own decree he most follow because to not follow it would be an intrinsic impossibility. He may not, at that time, have wanted to be merciful, he may have wanted nothing more than to destroy the israelites but was held by his own previous decree.


Until you see that because God has decreed something does not mean that God ALWAYS wants to act on this decree but HAS to act on it to retain omnipotence we can't take it any further.

So I can say that God knew there was a chance they would be able to affect him by appealing to his previous decree of mercy , he did not want them to, and will'ed the destruction of the israelites.

Did you ever see the film "Training Day" as I have thought up an ok'ish analogy from that...

TTT

"Until you see that because God has decreed something does not mean that God ALWAYS wants to act on this decree but HAS to act on it to retain omnipotence we can't take it any further."

God never does anything He does not want to do for:

Psalm 135:6 "The LORD does whatever pleases him throughout all heaven and earth, and on the seas and in their depths."


Daniel 4:35 "All the people of the earth are nothing compared to him. He has the power to do as he pleases among the angels of heaven and with those who live on earth. No one can stop him or challenge him, saying, `What do you mean by doing these things?'"

TTT for Siamang

Psalm 135:6 "The LORD does whatever pleases him throughout all heaven and earth, and on the seas and in their depths."

Like making a squared circle?

God does whatever pleases him that ISN'T AN INTRINSIC IMPOSSIBILITY. For him to turn his back on his own decree would be a failure for him to keep that decree, for God to fail would be an INTRINSIC IMPOSSIBILITY. Do you see?

Let's imagine I had once signed a contract that said I had to look after this sick person on their demand.....and if I fail to, I am killed. When I then say "I want to do my college work more than anything else right now" , it means precisely that "i want to do my college work more than anything else right now" . Now, just as I am about to get started on my college work I get a phone call "John, I'm sick, remember the contract" - despite the fact that when I signed the contract it was my own active will to sign it, when the call comes through I do not want to go, I want to do my college work - But I have no choice, because if I don't, I die. So I did not lie when I said I wanted to do my college work at that particular time more than anything else , there was no implicit condition that depended on my current will but a condition that depended on matters beyond my control.

Now I'm not saying that God could die, but he would cease to be God if he were not omnipotent, and he would cease to be omnipotent if he broke his own decree. So his active will, at that particular time, had no choice......

But even *if* you are right you are still only explaining why He stays His hand when Moses prays.

But He does not have to be merciful UNLESS Moses prays. And so you yourself are stating that God did not change His mind for His mind was already made up to give the Jews mercy if Moses prayed (even if you are right and this pained Him). You are *still* only explaining the 'why' of God relenting.

This does nothing to advance your position that God does not know *if* Moses will pray. Can you not see this?