what are the disadvantages of not using the lockdown (grapevine?) when doing the rolling back take (samurai?) to the back or the twister?
how will an opponent that is familiar with that roll counter the non-grapevined version?
any videos of a counter to the non grapevine version?
iirc eddie criticised ryan's verion? correct me if i'm wrong.
oh, found this here:
http://www.10thplanetjj.com/threads/2077-Ryan-Hall-Teaching-The-Twister-Roll/page4
"No fishnet? No love handle? No lockdown? Ryan is a straight assassin with alot of shit especially the 50/50 system but based on these clips, his twister roll set ups are circa 2001. Alot has changed since my twister roll set ups in the mid 90's to early 2000's. Dudes at Jean Jacques started getting hip to them and started flipping the twister rolls on me, especially Craig Beachamp. The only way those set ups are gonna work are against guys that don't know how to do twister rolls themselves. If you try to set up a twister roll without a fishnet or love handle or lockdown at HQ against my browns, you will get it flipped on you. I would never set up a twister roll the late 90's way unless I'm rolling with a dude who has no clue about it. Weird how Ryan doesn't mention who he learned the twister roll from but then again it doesn't seem like giving props is something that he's really that into"
is there a video where i can see the fishnet and love handle?
how do you flip a twister roll when they don't use a fishnet or love handle or lockdown?
I would love to see Ryan hall respond to this... 
description of "love handle" anyone?
Ryan teaches how to flip and avoid having it flipped in the DVD set. It just revolves around winning the fight to have your shin in the back of your opponent's knee (and not letting him do the same), then locking the control in place using your other foot. A full 'lockdown' grapevine seems unnecessary.
The 10th PJJ version with fishnet and lockdown seems a lot tighter and lower risk to me.
Sure, the opponent needs to win what Ryan calls the "shin in the knee battle" in order to flip it on you. But, it's not that hard for your opponent to win that battle with a small repositioning of his leg.
It seems like the fishnet and lockdown short circuit that battle, and stack the odds more in your favor. There are always times for high risk attacks, but most of the time, I would prefer to not subject myself to that high risk battle.
Tap21 - The 10th PJJ version with fishnet and lockdown seems a lot tighter and lower risk to me.
Sure, the opponent needs to win what Ryan calls the "shin in the knee battle" in order to flip it on you. But, it's not that hard for your opponent to win that battle with a small repositioning of his leg.
It seems like the fishnet and lockdown short circuit that battle, and stack the odds more in your favor. There are always times for high risk attacks, but most of the time, I would prefer to not subject myself to that high risk battle.
The opponent can't win that battle anymore when you lock his ankle in place with yours (as Ryan shows).
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "lock his ankle in place with yours".
At how many seconds into the first twister roll in this video does that happen?
The phrase "lock his ankle in place with yours" makes me think of lockdown. But, it doesn't seem like Ryan does that...at least in the first twister roll in the video above.
He goes instep-against-instep with the free leg, similar to what you do with the lockdown, but he doesn't triangle his own legs. He might only do it when the opponent starts trying to change the angle. Just pick up the DVD set.
Okay, I think I understand what you are saying. Sounds like it is maybe less complex to do it without triangling the legs, but it still sounds less secure to me. It also seems like, at times at least, it would be a bit of stretch to reach your leg far enough to get shin to shin with just the one leg.
But, who knows, it's hard to tell what will be considered the most efficient form of any given technique in the future.
If u don't lock it down he will free his hips and escape. Just a slight turn of the hips means loss of the submission abilities. Also, mid roll you can flip the twister the way Ryan does it. You need that lockdown in place with thefishnet or else as u become weightless during the roll, he will slide his knee under your hip and it will be a race. Also if you put your lockdown in on top, you don't even have to roll, you can finish the crotch ripper right there on top
^^Thanks you!
good vid of ryan getting the shin behind the knee and taking hermes back off the roll, not from side control but just while flowing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mJT_PgVgPY&feature=related
I say do it like glover and don't hook until half way into the roll and take the back 
I think the key detail for Hall's version is to use the foot pushing on the ankle to make the roll stronger to get to the back, he is not setting up a twister, he is looking to rotate the guy enough to get to the back, it's a stronger push by using the free foot instead of locking it down, just a thought
liquidrob - I think the key detail for Hall's version is to use the foot pushing on the ankle to make the roll stronger to get to the back, he is not setting up a twister, he is looking to rotate the guy enough to get to the back, it's a stronger push by using the free foot instead of locking it down, just a thought
Truth
I just reviewed Hall's DVD set, and he does something else (that I had forgotten about) to counter this 'switch': He uses either his hand (temporarily, with certain setups) or the shin of his free leg (main method) to lock the opponent's knee in place, making it impossible for the opponent to readjust the angle for the switch.