I always wanted to see rorion do it! He had an addin BB mag challenging ANYONE in the world to fight. At UFC1 time he woulda slapped the shit out of younger bro Royce, as would Rickson!
SuperFightFan - I always wanted to see rorion do it! He had an addin BB mag challenging ANYONE in the world to fight. At UFC1 time he woulda slapped the shit out of younger bro Royce, as would Rickson!
Yes, there was an article in a magazine back then that said Royce was no.6 in the Gracie family back then.
ons ear -HELWIG -Ken was way too physical for anyone who relied on pysicality in those days.
He took out Severn despite having no where near Severn's credentials.
No, Ken struggled to overpower Felix Lee Mitchell…this fight right here made me realize that Kens wrestling was not that good
Yet he ran through Severn, who said Ken was the only fighter he couldn’t move.
LOL
Ken had an injury during the Mitchell fight, and ““struggled”” is a relative term, since Felix never had Ken in any trouble whatsoever.
The fact that Ken didn’t run through Mitchell like he did Lenninger, doesn’t mean Ken wasn’t a good wrestler, LOL.
Ken was undoubtedly one of the best wrestlers, for MMA, of that era.
And I would also define him as more of a grappler than a wrestler.
The only way Kukuk beats Shamrock, is if Ken (as I stated above), exposes himself out of ignorance.
And if that happened – UFC1 would have been the only time KuKuk would have been able to beat Shamrock.
KingMartyrJack -tajmills -KingMartyrJack -tajmills - Shammy puts a hurting on Kukuk. I've seen a few of Kukuk's nhb Gracie challenge fights. He was good but couldn't hold Royce's jock strap..LOL. He was better than Royce.
Yeah right… According to the OG, 99.9 percent of bjj black belts were/are better than Royce… People put way too much stock into his match with Wallid…
And his match with De LaRiva, and his match with Sakuraba, and his match with Matt Hughes, and his match with… some other BJJ guy.
Face it. He wasn’t close to the best from the family.
Kukuk would maul him and Shamrock.
Yet Royce has a better MMA resume than anyone in his family.
There is a difference between an NHB fight in a cage, and rolling at the family dojo.
We can speculate till the end of time, but it’s still only speculation.
Royce actually did it.
He was tough as nails, and had the perfect mindset/attitude to pull it off.
I do not necessarily believe that any of those guys could have stepped up and did what Royce did.
I’m sure they would all have varying degrees of success…
… but just presuming they all run through those first few UFCs, is very much flawed logic IMO.
And LOL at Kukuk “mauling” Shamrock.
Not one person was able to do that until an old and injured Ken fought prime Tito.
Double
williepep - Wow you guys don't seem to believe in technique and the martial arts.
Ken Shamrock certainly did.
Amazing how underrated he is.
I’ve acknowledged where Ken might lose to KuKuk in UFC 1, and why.
But it’s anything but a foregone conclusion.
tajmills -KingMartyrJack -tajmills - Shammy puts a hurting on Kukuk. I've seen a few of Kukuk's nhb Gracie challenge fights. He was good but couldn't hold Royce's jock strap..LOL. He was better than Royce.
Yeah right… According to the OG, 99.9 percent of bjj black belts were/are better than Royce… People put way too much stock into his match with Wallid…
Royce was better in NHB than sport jujitsu.
IMO, an impressive NHB resume is more prestigious than a sport grappling resume.
It’s crazy to me how underrated Royce is by some.
It took someone special to do what he did.
It’s not just about technique.
Plenty of gym monsters don’t have the fortitude to translate it to real fights.
KingMartyrJack -onepunchJD -KingMartyrJack -tajmills -KingMartyrJack -tajmills - Shammy puts a hurting on Kukuk. I've seen a few of Kukuk's nhb Gracie challenge fights. He was good but couldn't hold Royce's jock strap..LOL. He was better than Royce.
Yeah right… According to the OG, 99.9 percent of bjj black belts were/are better than Royce… People put way too much stock into his match with Wallid…
And his match with De LaRiva, and his match with Sakuraba, and his match with Matt Hughes, and his match with… some other BJJ guy.
Face it. He wasn’t close to the best from the family.
Kukuk would maul him and Shamrock.
Yet Royce has a better MMA resume than anyone in his family.
There is a difference between an NHB fight in a cage, and rolling at the family dojo.
We can speculate till the end of time, but it’s still only speculation.
Royce actually did it.
He was tough as nails, and had the perfect mindset/attitude to pull it off.
I do not necessarily believe that any of those guys could have stepped up and did what Royce did.
I’m sure they would all have varying degrees of success…
… but just presuming they all run through those first few UFCs, is very much flawed logic IMO.
And LOL at Kukuk “mauling” Shamrock.
Not one person was able to do that until an old and injured Ken fought prime Tito.
This discussion is about UFC 1 right?
Kukuk was better than Royce then.
Kukuk could have done what Royce did and more. Ergo, Kukuk would have easily submitted a UFC 1 Shamrock.
Question for you… What are you basing this on? I’d love to hear it…
KingMartyrJack -onepunchJD -KingMartyrJack -tajmills -KingMartyrJack -tajmills - Shammy puts a hurting on Kukuk. I've seen a few of Kukuk's nhb Gracie challenge fights. He was good but couldn't hold Royce's jock strap..LOL. He was better than Royce.
Yeah right… According to the OG, 99.9 percent of bjj black belts were/are better than Royce… People put way too much stock into his match with Wallid…
And his match with De LaRiva, and his match with Sakuraba, and his match with Matt Hughes, and his match with… some other BJJ guy.
Face it. He wasn’t close to the best from the family.
Kukuk would maul him and Shamrock.
Yet Royce has a better MMA resume than anyone in his family.
There is a difference between an NHB fight in a cage, and rolling at the family dojo.
We can speculate till the end of time, but it’s still only speculation.
Royce actually did it.
He was tough as nails, and had the perfect mindset/attitude to pull it off.
I do not necessarily believe that any of those guys could have stepped up and did what Royce did.
I’m sure they would all have varying degrees of success…
… but just presuming they all run through those first few UFCs, is very much flawed logic IMO.
And LOL at Kukuk “mauling” Shamrock.
Not one person was able to do that until an old and injured Ken fought prime Tito.
This discussion is about UFC 1 right?
Kukuk was better than Royce then.
Kukuk could have done what Royce did and more. Ergo, Kukuk would have easily submitted a UFC 1 Shamrock.
You are using a very narrow minded and unsubstantiated argument – while ignoring other completely relevant factors.
It’s like using MMA math, only you don’t even really know the numbers.
Speculation is one thing.
But to have such confidence in such a blindly speculative outcome… is a little weird.
KingMartyrJack -onepunchJD -KingMartyrJack -onepunchJD -KingMartyrJack -tajmills -KingMartyrJack -tajmills - Shammy puts a hurting on Kukuk. I've seen a few of Kukuk's nhb Gracie challenge fights. He was good but couldn't hold Royce's jock strap..LOL. He was better than Royce.
Yeah right… According to the OG, 99.9 percent of bjj black belts were/are better than Royce… People put way too much stock into his match with Wallid…
And his match with De LaRiva, and his match with Sakuraba, and his match with Matt Hughes, and his match with… some other BJJ guy.
Face it. He wasn’t close to the best from the family.
Kukuk would maul him and Shamrock.
Yet Royce has a better MMA resume than anyone in his family.
There is a difference between an NHB fight in a cage, and rolling at the family dojo.
We can speculate till the end of time, but it’s still only speculation.
Royce actually did it.
He was tough as nails, and had the perfect mindset/attitude to pull it off.
I do not necessarily believe that any of those guys could have stepped up and did what Royce did.
I’m sure they would all have varying degrees of success…
… but just presuming they all run through those first few UFCs, is very much flawed logic IMO.
And LOL at Kukuk “mauling” Shamrock.
Not one person was able to do that until an old and injured Ken fought prime Tito.
This discussion is about UFC 1 right?
Kukuk was better than Royce then.
Kukuk could have done what Royce did and more. Ergo, Kukuk would have easily submitted a UFC 1 Shamrock.
You are using a very narrow minded and unsubstantiated argument – while ignoring other completely relevant factors.
It’s like using MMA math, only you don’t even really know the numbers.
Speculation is one thing.
But to have such confidence in such a blindly speculative outcome… is a little weird.
It's ALL speculation, bro. Just like anyone saying Shamrock would win.
However my speculation is simple:
- Royce wasn't as good as most of the Gracies. Even they said so, and it has been proven by people like Wallid.
- I know people who tapped Royce in training (and he would play it off as if he 'let' them).
- Kukuk by all ... was a badass. You don't become the first non-Brazilian blackbelt without being seen as such.
- I believe he was promoted to black in Brazil by Royler (at the tiem probably p4p the best BJJ guy)
- Renzo chose him to be his partner for good reason (though they fell out later)
Unless we have a time machine and drop them back into the UFC 1 cage, no one knows 'for sure', but that's my best opinion.
Thanks for actually explaining your position.
Ken was a fucking monster.
Kukuk might have exposed an area of ignorance-- and if you read my post o the first page, I speak to that.
But if you don’t acknowledge what a monster Ken was, and the threats he brought to the table – I think you are missing a big part of the equation.
I also think that saying “” Royce wasn’t as good as most of the Gracie’s"", is a very persumptious statement.
The Gracie’s had a lot on the line.
If Royce wasn’t game – why do they put him in the UFC??
These guys grew up together.
So they obviously knew, that Royce had what it took to battle all comers with very few rules.
Again…
Royce has a better NHB/MMA resume than any of them.
It’s not all about technique on the mats.
There is a mental aspect.<br
Again…
From the early 90’s until the first Tito fight-- nobody really kicked Ken’s ass.
Maybe ignorance of technique means that Ken gets subbed in UFC 1… but if you read all my posts in this thread – I think I make valid points.
And I don’t mind disagreeing at all man.
I just think it’s convenient that so many guys that Royce didn’t fight in those days – were somehow so much better.
Renzo obviously had better standup than both Royce and Rickson.
Rickson left his hands down, and chin exposed – even moreso than Royce.
Plus, Rickson didn’t wear a gi in his MMA fights.
Royce used the gi very well to his advantage in those early days.
I don’t know man…
… none of us really do…
But there are variables here that deserve more attention.
KingMartyrJack -onepunchJD -KingMartyrJack -onepunchJD -KingMartyrJack -tajmills -KingMartyrJack -tajmills - Shammy puts a hurting on Kukuk. I've seen a few of Kukuk's nhb Gracie challenge fights. He was good but couldn't hold Royce's jock strap..LOL. He was better than Royce.
Yeah right… According to the OG, 99.9 percent of bjj black belts were/are better than Royce… People put way too much stock into his match with Wallid…
And his match with De LaRiva, and his match with Sakuraba, and his match with Matt Hughes, and his match with… some other BJJ guy.
Face it. He wasn’t close to the best from the family.
Kukuk would maul him and Shamrock.
Yet Royce has a better MMA resume than anyone in his family.
There is a difference between an NHB fight in a cage, and rolling at the family dojo.
We can speculate till the end of time, but it’s still only speculation.
Royce actually did it.
He was tough as nails, and had the perfect mindset/attitude to pull it off.
I do not necessarily believe that any of those guys could have stepped up and did what Royce did.
I’m sure they would all have varying degrees of success…
… but just presuming they all run through those first few UFCs, is very much flawed logic IMO.
And LOL at Kukuk “mauling” Shamrock.
Not one person was able to do that until an old and injured Ken fought prime Tito.
This discussion is about UFC 1 right?
Kukuk was better than Royce then.
Kukuk could have done what Royce did and more. Ergo, Kukuk would have easily submitted a UFC 1 Shamrock.
You are using a very narrow minded and unsubstantiated argument – while ignoring other completely relevant factors.
It’s like using MMA math, only you don’t even really know the numbers.
Speculation is one thing.
But to have such confidence in such a blindly speculative outcome… is a little weird.
It's ALL speculation, bro. Just like anyone saying Shamrock would win.
However my speculation is simple:
- Royce wasn't as good as most of the Gracies. Even they said so, and it has been proven by people like Wallid.
- I know people who tapped Royce in training (and he would play it off as if he 'let' them).
- Kukuk by all ... was a badass. You don't become the first non-Brazilian blackbelt without being seen as such.
- I believe he was promoted to black in Brazil by Royler (at the tiem probably p4p the best BJJ guy)
- Renzo chose him to be his partner for good reason (though they fell out later)
Unless we have a time machine and drop them back into the UFC 1 cage, no one knows 'for sure', but that's my best opinion.
Wallid beat Royce in SPORT BJJ. Do you think Wallid would been able to beat every guy Royce beat in NHB? I don't, and I'm not a Royce fan.
So because all these guys were better at Royce in sport BJJ doesn't mean shit.
onepunchJD -KingMartyrJack -tajmills -KingMartyrJack -tajmills - Shammy puts a hurting on Kukuk. I've seen a few of Kukuk's nhb Gracie challenge fights. He was good but couldn't hold Royce's jock strap..LOL. He was better than Royce.
Yeah right… According to the OG, 99.9 percent of bjj black belts were/are better than Royce… People put way too much stock into his match with Wallid…
And his match with De LaRiva, and his match with Sakuraba, and his match with Matt Hughes, and his match with… some other BJJ guy.
Face it. He wasn’t close to the best from the family.
Kukuk would maul him and Shamrock.
Yet Royce has a better MMA resume than anyone in his family.
There is a difference between an NHB fight in a cage, and rolling at the family dojo.
We can speculate till the end of time, but it’s still only speculation.
Royce actually did it.
He was tough as nails, and had the perfect mindset/attitude to pull it off.
I do not necessarily believe that any of those guys could have stepped up and did what Royce did.
I’m sure they would all have varying degrees of success…
… but just presuming they all run through those first few UFCs, is very much flawed logic IMO.
And LOL at Kukuk “mauling” Shamrock.
Not one person was able to do that until an old and injured Ken fought prime Tito.
"Yet Royce has a better MMA resume than anyone in his family."
Renzo? He beat Pat Miletich, Frank Shamrock, Yuki Kondo, Oleg, Mo Smith, Carlos Newton.
blabbermouth -onepunchJD -KingMartyrJack -tajmills -KingMartyrJack -tajmills - Shammy puts a hurting on Kukuk. I've seen a few of Kukuk's nhb Gracie challenge fights. He was good but couldn't hold Royce's jock strap..LOL. He was better than Royce.
Yeah right… According to the OG, 99.9 percent of bjj black belts were/are better than Royce… People put way too much stock into his match with Wallid…
And his match with De LaRiva, and his match with Sakuraba, and his match with Matt Hughes, and his match with… some other BJJ guy.
Face it. He wasn’t close to the best from the family.
Kukuk would maul him and Shamrock.
Yet Royce has a better MMA resume than anyone in his family.
There is a difference between an NHB fight in a cage, and rolling at the family dojo.
We can speculate till the end of time, but it’s still only speculation.
Royce actually did it.
He was tough as nails, and had the perfect mindset/attitude to pull it off.
I do not necessarily believe that any of those guys could have stepped up and did what Royce did.
I’m sure they would all have varying degrees of success…
… but just presuming they all run through those first few UFCs, is very much flawed logic IMO.
And LOL at Kukuk “mauling” Shamrock.
Not one person was able to do that until an old and injured Ken fought prime Tito.
"Yet Royce has a better MMA resume than anyone in his family."
Renzo? He beat Pat Miletich, Frank Shamrock, Yuki Kondo, Oleg, Mo Smith, Carlos Newton.
Yeah its close between Royce and Renzo.
Renzo also never asked for special rules. He also fought anyone without picking opponents.
I think Renzo has the best NHB/MMA resume followed by Royce.
trained with renzo at the barn years ago He was super friendly and layed back.Ill be honest Kukok was intimidating .I was for sure nervous not to mess up the move with him seeing it
Sir Drinks a lot -Renzo also never asked for special rules. He also fought anyone without picking opponents.
I think Renzo has the best NHB/MMA resume followed by Royce.
To be brutal honest, the special rules were always to make closer to a real fight AND NOT GET F’D over by Crooked judges. Remember what Yoshida & ref did in 1st match? The special rules were no time limits, or unlimited rounds and no ref stoppages. In hindsight these rtules should hurt the weaker Gracies vs guys like Saku/Yoshida! But its an easy way to pick on Royce/Gracies.
Comparing records:
Just big wins:
Royce:
3 UFC Tourny’s
Shamrock
Severn
Kimo
Pat Smith
Hackney
Remco
Gordeau
Saku (no more BS than the DQ win Renzo has over Frank, yes a close judges decision is better than a DQ win)
Renzo:
WCC Tourny
Oleg
Smith (Rings rules)
Frank (by DQ)
Newton
Miletich
Warring
Kondo
Shoji
Maurice Smith (in Rings, with Rings rules), The weird Frank Shammy DQ, and the upkick on Oleg (hardcores know Oleg fought that fight with a broken hand and atfer a 30 min beating by Ruas in brazil 10 days earlier). Next big wins are Old broken neck Miletich and a split decision over Newton (both old at the time too).
He struggled with guys like Ohara, Otsuka, Shoji, lost to Oyama/Tamura.
Lost REAL biggest fights vs Saku, Hendo, Penn, Hughes.
Yet, Royce won 3 UFC tournies including sub wins over Ken, Severn, Kimo, Pat Smith, Hackney, Remco, etc. Whooped on Yoshida in Pride mma fight, Went 36 mins with Prime Ken Then 90 minutes with prime Saku. And beat Saku in a rematch.
SuperFightFan -Sir Drinks a lot -Renzo also never asked for special rules. He also fought anyone without picking opponents.
I think Renzo has the best NHB/MMA resume followed by Royce.
To be brutal honest, the special rules were always to make closer to a real fight AND NOT GET F’D over by Crooked judges. Remember what Yoshida & ref did in 1st match? The special rules were no time limits, or unlimited rounds and no ref stoppages. In hindsight these rtules should hurt the weaker Gracies vs guys like Saku/Yoshida! But its an easy way to pick on Royce/Gracies.
Comparing records:
Just big wins:
Royce:
3 UFC Tourny’s
Shamrock
Severn
Kimo
Pat Smith
Hackney
Remco
Gordeau
Saku (no more BS than the DQ win Renzo has over Frank, yes a close judges decision is better than a DQ win)
Renzo:
WCC Tourny
Oleg
Smith (Rings rules)
Frank (by DQ)
Newton
Miletich
Warring
Kondo
Shoji
Maurice Smith (in Rings, with Rings rules), The weird Frank Shammy DQ, and the upkick on Oleg (hardcores know Oleg fought that fight with a broken hand and atfer a 30 min beating by Ruas in brazil 10 days earlier). Next big wins are Old broken neck Miletich and a split decision over Newton (both old at the time too).
He struggled with guys like Ohara, Otsuka, Shoji, lost to Oyama/Tamura.
Lost REAL biggest fights vs Saku, Hendo, Penn, Hughes.
Yet, Royce won 3 UFC tournies including sub wins over Ken, Severn, Kimo, Pat Smith, Hackney, Remco, etc. Whooped on Yoshida in Pride mma fight, Went 36 mins with Prime Ken Then 90 minutes with prime Saku. And beat Saku in a rematch.
BUT, BUT, the lack of sport bjj championships doe…
I got in to BJJ, to learn how to fight… Not to win in a tournament… If that’s your thing, great but BJJ was originally designed for fighting … Royce and Renzo’s resumes are the most impressive out of all the Gracie’s… As a matter of fact, even though I know he won a few championships, I don’t ever recall hearing Renzo or Kukuk win any world bjj championships… IMO, it’s overrated…
tajmills -SuperFightFan -Sir Drinks a lot -Renzo also never asked for special rules. He also fought anyone without picking opponents.
I think Renzo has the best NHB/MMA resume followed by Royce.
To be brutal honest, the special rules were always to make closer to a real fight AND NOT GET F’D over by Crooked judges. Remember what Yoshida & ref did in 1st match? The special rules were no time limits, or unlimited rounds and no ref stoppages. In hindsight these rtules should hurt the weaker Gracies vs guys like Saku/Yoshida! But its an easy way to pick on Royce/Gracies.
Comparing records:
Just big wins:
Royce:
3 UFC Tourny’s
Shamrock
Severn
Kimo
Pat Smith
Hackney
Remco
Gordeau
Saku (no more BS than the DQ win Renzo has over Frank, yes a close judges decision is better than a DQ win)
Renzo:
WCC Tourny
Oleg
Smith (Rings rules)
Frank (by DQ)
Newton
Miletich
Warring
Kondo
Shoji
Maurice Smith (in Rings, with Rings rules), The weird Frank Shammy DQ, and the upkick on Oleg (hardcores know Oleg fought that fight with a broken hand and atfer a 30 min beating by Ruas in brazil 10 days earlier). Next big wins are Old broken neck Miletich and a split decision over Newton (both old at the time too).
He struggled with guys like Ohara, Otsuka, Shoji, lost to Oyama/Tamura.
Lost REAL biggest fights vs Saku, Hendo, Penn, Hughes.
Yet, Royce won 3 UFC tournies including sub wins over Ken, Severn, Kimo, Pat Smith, Hackney, Remco, etc. Whooped on Yoshida in Pride mma fight, Went 36 mins with Prime Ken Then 90 minutes with prime Saku. And beat Saku in a rematch.
BUT, BUT, the lack of sport bjj championships doe…
I got in to BJJ, to learn how to fight… Not to win in a tournament… If that’s your thing, great but BJJ was originally designed for fighting … Royce and Renzo’s resumes are the most impressive out of all the Gracie’s… As a matter of fact, even though I know he won a few championships, I don’t ever recall hearing Renzo or Kukuk win any world bjj championships… IMO, it’s overrated…
FRickson by arm bar. 11-0 all by submissions. Lol
Kukuk was also a wrestler, so he would have had the submission edge and also had a better understanding of takedowns. So who knows but I think it would have been closer than many think. Add in from the beginning per himself and some of his students he was always more no gi vs gi oriented.