what are peoples thoughts on this fight?
anyone that was lucky or unlucky enough to watch it live on ppv, what were your thoughts going into the fight?was Royce still invincible to you guys at that time?
to this day i dont know what Kens gameplan was going into the fight..he took Royce down and laid on him, even his dad was begging him to "do something Ken!" yet he just seemed content with surviving and getting a draw..
was this fight originally supposed to be no time limit?
after the fight did everyone think Ken won since he landed the punch?
The fight had a 30 minute time limit. The previous event, UFC 4, went passed the PPV time slot. Some regions cut the event short and did not broadcast the ending of the final match - Royce VS Severn. So at UFC 5, they started time limits.
When the match between Royce and Ken ended with no winner (30 minutes), they added the 5 minute overtime, which hadn't been planned. At the beginning of the over time restart on the feet, Ken landed that punch to Royce's face, swelling it up big time.
Me personally... I think it was more of a victory for Royce. You had a bigger and stronger Ken, who simply laid in Royce's guard, too afraid to do anything. He was afraid to stick his head up and barely even punched. He just kept his head and arms tucked in, away from any potential choke or lock.
Was this period considered Shamrock's "prime"?
Pretty much Shamrock's prime, yes.
At the next event, UFC 6, Shamrock faced UFC 5 tournament champion Dan Severn in the Superfight, and won.
People might think that mouse on Royce's eye was something, but I would rather have that than piss blood for days like Shammy was doing after the fight.
Hasn't Ken always claimed he didn't know there was a time limit or he was told on the day of the event or something?
i remember a long loooong ago interview with him saying he was training for a 2+ hr fight and was content to wait Royce out.
I thought I remembered hearing Ken wanted to prove he could stay in Royce's guard and not be submitted.
Seems like a horrible idea, if true.
Ken had a couple really bad fights like this.
Ken vs Royce 2
Ken vs Severn 2
Ken vs Taktarav (more action in comparison)
Stalling in the BJJ scene was called Shamrocking for quite a while after that fight. It was not a good look for Ken... It was a draw but Royce came out of it looking a whole lot better than Ken did (obviously I don't mean physically because of the swelling)
the ken pissing blood thing is a myth. ken said he never pissed any blood.
by todays judging, ken won
i'd have preferred he did a sprawl and brawl strategy. he had no cardio issues back then.
i believe it takes 2 to stall. royce tried like 2 subs and never got close. if his grappling was really worlds beyond kens, he coulda done much more.
I saw it at a bar and think that most people there thought Ken won the fight because of the OT punch.
I think Ken said his strategy was something about not making a mistake because that is how the GJJ guys win fights...they capitalize on your mistake. He wanted Royce to be an aggressor rather than a counter fighter.
Not a good fight but Ken/Severn II was much worse.
People seem to forget that Royce had an ezekial choke sunk in on Shamrock in the first 5 minutes. Ken was turning blue, almost out, when he broke the grip.
Those saying Royce did nothing need to reexamine the fight - that choke had Royce closer to winning the fight than Ken's OT punch did
"by todays judging, ken won"
By today's rules, the fight would never have happened, since Ken was substantially heavier than Royce.
ons ear - what are peoples thoughts on this fight?
anyone that was lucky or unlucky enough to watch it live on ppv, what were your thoughts going into the fight?was Royce still invincible to you guys at that time?
to this day i dont know what Kens gameplan was going into the fight..he took Royce down and laid on him, even his dad was begging him to "do something Ken!" yet he just seemed content with surviving and getting a draw..
was this fight originally supposed to be no time limit?
after the fight did everyone think Ken won since he landed the punch?
I went to it live. Went to a seminar early in the day with Helio, Rorion, Relson and Rolker
It doesn't always take two to stall. It only takes one if it's a bigger and much stronger guy wanting it that way and hiding.
A smaller and weaker BJJ fighter uses what force or attack his opponent gives him. And Ken was too afraid to do anything, especially after Royce threatened with the Ezekiel choke.
pickula - "by todays judging, ken won"
By today's rules, the fight would never have happened, since Ken was substantially heavier than Royce.
Texas disagrees
Still don't understand why shamrock wouldn't avoid the ground... Instead he takes it there twice intentionally.
Fantastic game plan. Amazing. Especially against a non striking non wrestling bjjer.
Ken was happy with a draw. He could've beat the shit out of Royce standing but he fought with a terrible gameplan instead.
ken had a youtube video about this. He just basically felt comfortable neutralizing gracie in that guard position. ken could care less about the kidney heel kicks.
i was a royce nuthugger so my thought was, why couldn't he magically get a rear naked choke from that position cuz watching in-action 2, Rickson was able to from that position on zulu.
cumprido1 - Still don't understand why shamrock wouldn't avoid the ground... Instead he takes it there twice intentionally.
Fantastic game plan. Amazing. Especially against a non striking non wrestling bjjer.
Different now, but you gotta remember that this was the early/mid 90s.
Ken was a ground submission specialist and 100% of his fights ended in submission, with 95% of them being him as the winner.
He wasn't going to follow a 'make him stand and trade' strategy.
Also, it seems obvious now, but it wasn't really until Sakuraba that the strategy of 'only go to the ground when you feel like it' became a thing.
For a time there, it was considered almost cowardly to refuse to engage while the BJJ guy lay on his back and dared you to come down ... leading to a lot of strikers just diving in every time with no strategy at all lol