unfortunately we dont get prestigous title fights like arlovski/justin eilers anymore.
Yeah pretty much this.
UFC title shots were being handed out arbitrarily ever since the weight divisions were established. Nothing is new here, and it really only matters when the legit #1 contender is being passed over for a shot. Which doesn't happen very often.
Chael passing over Dan Henderson is one instance of a legit #1 contender being passed over, but I agree that it doesn't happen much. the #2 guy just isn't always a viable contender. i mean, how many times would we have had to watch Jon Fitch get battered by GSP if that was how things were done.
sacredhate - so which belt has not been tested by a credible contender?
and which credible contender is being denied a shot?
the fact that contenders are refusing fights and so we have the odd "fun" fight as Dana would say does not diminish the belt.
GSP got his title shot after fewer fights than Hendricks will have. Weidman is 5-0 in the UFC...sure he's still new but he's showing promise.
If UFC had followed your logic JBJ wouldn't have go the shot he did.
It's a sport where anything can happen, occassionally that means nonsense like Chael vs. JBJ...but for the most part i have no complaints.
How about Overeem being next in line, (ahead of cain prior to being suspended) in spite of failing his drug test following his victory over Lesnar?
How about Belfort and Chael getting shots at Jones when they are not even in his division nor have they won a single fight at that weight class since leaving for 185 years ago?
How about Rousey getting a UFC championship when a division does not even exist in the company?
How about Urijah Faber and his repeated title shots in spite of loss after loss after loss?
How about Kenny Florian and his Urijah treatment?
How about Dan Hardy getting his title shot and GSP actually telling us he was his toughest opponent of his career?
So you don't like that Urijah kept getting title shots after a single loss and then dominating a top contender...but you'd like Cain to have that chance?
Belfort only got the fight because Henderson got hurt, and other contenders like Machida didn't want the fight on short notice. you would have preferred a cancelled card to an entertaining fight?
Kenflo fought for a vacant belt in 2006, then went 6-0 before getting another shot at it vs BJ Penn. 2 years, and 4 fights later (going 3-1) he got a shot at FW. and a top contender at LW dropping down gave Aldo a ton of credibility in his victory, his 2nd UFC defense.
And Hardy was 23-6-1 going into the GSP fight having gone 4-0 in the UFC.
Sure it's not perfect, but it's hardly anything to cry about or say "UFC belts have no credibility".
sacredhate - so which belt has not been tested by a credible contender?
and which credible contender is being denied a shot?
the fact that contenders are refusing fights and so we have the odd "fun" fight as Dana would say does not diminish the belt.
GSP got his title shot after fewer fights than Hendricks will have. Weidman is 5-0 in the UFC...sure he's still new but he's showing promise.
If UFC had followed your logic JBJ wouldn't have go the shot he did.
It's a sport where anything can happen, occassionally that means nonsense like Chael vs. JBJ...but for the most part i have no complaints.
How about Overeem being next in line, (ahead of cain prior to being suspended) in spite of failing his drug test following his victory over Lesnar?
How about Belfort and Chael getting shots at Jones when they are not even in his division nor have they won a single fight at that weight class since leaving for 185 years ago?
How about Rousey getting a UFC championship when a division does not even exist in the company?
How about Urijah Faber and his repeated title shots in spite of loss after loss after loss?
How about Kenny Florian and his Urijah treatment?
How about Dan Hardy getting his title shot and GSP actually telling us he was his toughest opponent of his career?
So you don't like that Urijah kept getting title shots after a single loss and then dominating a top contender...but you'd like Cain to have that chance?
Belfort only got the fight because Henderson got hurt, and other contenders like Machida didn't want the fight on short notice. you would have preferred a cancelled card to an entertaining fight?
Kenflo fought for a vacant belt in 2006, then went 6-0 before getting another shot at it vs BJ Penn. 2 years, and 4 fights later (going 3-1) he got a shot at FW. and a top contender at LW dropping down gave Aldo a ton of credibility in his victory, his 2nd UFC defense.
And Hardy was 23-6-1 going into the GSP fight having gone 4-0 in the UFC.
Sure it's not perfect, but it's hardly anything to cry about or say "UFC belts have no credibility".
If Cain gets titles shots after winning one fight, I'll feel the same way that I feel about Urijah. I don't think anyone has a problem with a champion getting a rematch after smashing a top 10 guy, it's the multiple shots that makes one scratch their head.
They did cancel the fight. Belfort/Jones was added to an existing card, it didnt' save a card from being cancelled. Look it up yourself, no card was saved as a result of Belfort stepping up.
Kenflo went 1-0 at 145 and got a shot at the belt. But even that was because the lighter divisions are so thin, they needed someone to step in. So why add 135 and 125 when they can barely put fights together at the next weight class? You've got to be able to see what these new divisions are all about.
Hardy was 4-0 in the UFC. What was Fitch?
And I'm hardly crying. I put this up here exactly for those who are crying about Anderson and GSP holding the division up when in fact there is no holding up. Guys get shots out of no where and I've documented that. You don't even have to win a single fight in the weight class and you have guys getting title shots. If that's happening, what division is being held up?
Tomato Can - The Sonnen title shot is absolute bullshit, but are you saying that Diaz is gonna get a title shot before Hendricks? Because if so, that's the first I've heard of it and it fucking blows.
Also, I don't really count GSP/Hardy as a similar case because the division was really threadbare at the time, GSP had cleaned it out and Hardy was the only alternative outside of a Fitch rematch which nobody wanted to see.
GSP was signed to fight Condit and the fight was pulled in order to give it to Diaz. That's probably the biggest crock of shit that they've done and I'm a Diaz fan.
I don't know the order of the title defenses I don't think anyone does, but what I'm saying is why would Diaz be in the mix, (other than it's a big money fight) when he just lost to the guy that lost to GSP? Diaz should have to go out and get some wins before there's any discussion of a title shot if these titles are going to be looked at as legit. The Penn win was great and I was all for a title shot, after all it would be a unification fight between Strike Force and UFC champions. It made sense but after Diaz lost, that shot should be gone, unless he gets some more wins.
I agree Diaz should not get a shot at GSP without at least 1 good win, but you're still being pretty damn hyperbolic about all this. Also do we actually know that Diaz is "in the mix" right now? All logic and good sense would point to Hendricks getting the next shot at GSP.
Once again, this is directed to those who believe Diaz should be next and I was clear about that in the OP. hell there are petitions going around to Dana White to make that the next fight. If youre not one of the many who have been fooled into thinking Diaz should be next then this doesn't apply to you.
SCH, you are 100% correct, but some people here will just not be able to grasp the concept of what you are trying to say. GSP has not had a STRONG challenger in 5+ years. Anderson's only imminent challenge where he needed to prove himself in that time frame was the Chael rematch. 5, 10, 20 years from now everybody is gonna look back and wonder why the hell those two never fought
oh thats right...GSP had that big Hendricks fight that NEEDED to be done! the fans can turn anybody they want into a contender in their mind, and we all know that anything can happen in mma, but realistically none of these guys in the "stacked" WW division would even be as good as a 3-1 dog to GSP
It's not that legit guys didn't get title shots eventually, although guys like Hendo, Fitch, Showtime Pettis, Condit being pulled out in favor of Diaz come to mind, it's the gifting of title shots or just handing out a belt to people completely undeserving.
Wasn't the last Fox card for a shot at the light heavyweight title for the most impressive fighter? What happened to that shot? It was either taken on 8 days notice or the shot comes off the table. All of that goes to making one doubt the legitimacy of the path to the championship. And if that's in question, well you have a championship that loses prestige.
SCH, you are 100% correct, but some people here will just not be able to grasp the concept of what you are trying to say. GSP has not had a STRONG challenger in 5+ years. Anderson's only imminent challenge where he needed to prove himself in that time frame was the Chael rematch. 5, 10, 20 years from now everybody is gonna look back and wonder why the hell those two never fought
oh thats right...GSP had that big Hendricks fight that NEEDED to be done! the fans can turn anybody they want into a contender in their mind, and we all know that anything can happen in mma, but realistically none of these guys in the "stacked" WW division would even be as good as a 3-1 dog to GSP
The fact that GSP is that much better than all other welterweights doesn't mean that the division isn't stacked, or that GSP has not fought every single contender who was even remotely deserving of a title shot.
So what does GSP not having a STRONG challenger have to do with UFC titles losing prestige? If anything, a strong, seemingly unbeatable champion gives a title way more prestige than when it's being passed around like a hot potato (i.e. 205 title after Liddell and before Jones).
GSP said it himself that he was no longer the champion because he failed to defend the belt for 19 months and Condit was the real champion. So if Condit is the real champion in GSP's eyes, what kind of prestige does that interim belt hold that was never even defended and never was going to be defended hold? Nothing. GSP winning reestablished a legitimate champion in the division for the first time in nearly 2 years. This is going off what GSP said, which I agree with. If Condit would have at least defended it once, then it would have meant something but as it stands, it was nothing more than a glorified #1 contender belt.
Now Bisping is pushing for an interim belt at 185 but at least he intends on defending it but still, Anderson is the champion and if another guy is running around defending the 185 pound belt, that takes away from the real title. It gets diluted. This is how I see it, GSP seems to see it the same way, not that it means he's correct, perhaps you are.
MinnowInaMankiniGotAced - "Condit being pulled out in favor of Diaz come to mind"
Huh? Maybe I'm not remembering this right, but wasn't it the other way around? Diaz was first scheduled to fight GSP for the title, Condit was supposed to fight Penn for #1 contender.
Diaz failed to show up for a press conference and was pulled from the fight. Condit was inserted to replace Diaz. GSP called Condit the tougher opponent and thus was pleased with the new challenger.
But then Diaz beat up Penn and called GSP out. GSP became so enraged that he demanded Dana White scrap the Condit fight and instead schedule the Diaz fight. This happened.
Then GSP blew out his knee and pull out of the Diaz fight, setting up Candit vs Diaz.
Pettis,Diaz and Hendo have been screwed. The rest need to promote themselves better. Interim titles are there for a reason and should be defended.
Title fights aren't just about who has earned them,it's also about who is going to help sales as there are a lot of people who make a living off of the company.
Big ppv numbers = a secure paycheck for Jonny camera man and Dave the octagon assembly manager all the way to Jenny in HR and Tiki Goshen not having to break his bank account to fly and eat during his corner man duties for the count.
SCH, you are 100% correct, but some people here will just not be able to grasp the concept of what you are trying to say. GSP has not had a STRONG challenger in 5+ years. Anderson's only imminent challenge where he needed to prove himself in that time frame was the Chael rematch. 5, 10, 20 years from now everybody is gonna look back and wonder why the hell those two never fought
oh thats right...GSP had that big Hendricks fight that NEEDED to be done! the fans can turn anybody they want into a contender in their mind, and we all know that anything can happen in mma, but realistically none of these guys in the "stacked" WW division would even be as good as a 3-1 dog to GSP
The fact that GSP is that much better than all other welterweights doesn't mean that the division isn't stacked, or that GSP has not fought every single contender who was even remotely deserving of a title shot.
So what does GSP not having a STRONG challenger have to do with UFC titles losing prestige? If anything, a strong, seemingly unbeatable champion gives a title way more prestige than when it's being passed around like a hot potato (i.e. 205 title after Liddell and before Jones).
you are reading too much into the title of the thread. Read the last paragraph of the op. the point is that there have not been and are not currently any challengers at ww and mw that are nearly good enough that they should take precedence over a once in a lifetime superfight.
If you don't like the fight for other reasons...thats fine and reasonable for sure. but there being such great legit challengers to those belts is not a reason to not do that fight
MinnowInaMankiniGotAced - "Wasn't the last Fox card for a shot at the light heavyweight title for the most impressive fighter? What happened to that shot? "
Shogun was offered it when Henderson pulled out, and turned it down. So did Machida.
Machida had already earned a title shot by virtue of winning most impressive fight on that FOX card.
That fight being offered to Shogun and Machida is a moot point because jones was not willing to fight on 8 days notice and Machida shouldn't have been expected to either. he should have been given his title shot with typical scheduling, not one week out. In other words, Machida got screwed out of it. Now he's fighting Henderson who also had earned his shot and now it no longer exists because the UFC wants Chael Sonnen in there instead. That's bullshit. 2 guys who are ahead of Chael in line are being bypassed and even put into an eliminator so Chael can get this fight, even though he has no wins at 205 since leaving middle weight. You don't see something wrong with this?
If you follow the UFC as a sport, and not a spectacle, this shouldn't sit right with you.
Pettis,Diaz and Hendo have been screwed. The rest need to promote themselves better. Interim titles are there for a reason and should be defended.
Title fights aren't just about who has earned them,it's also about who is going to help sales as there are a lot of people who make a living off of the company.
Big ppv numbers = a secure paycheck for Jonny camera man and Dave the octagon assembly manager all the way to Jenny in HR and Tiki Goshen not having to break his bank account to fly and eat during his corner man duties for the count.
Not to mention, big PPV numbers = the fights fans want.
A promoters job is to put on the fights fans want.
this is true in a short-sided way, but people begin to smell the bullshit after awhile and in the end it will just be a fad that gets passed by if there is not legitimacy to it. there can be some of the bs mixed in to sell, but there is a thin line that can't be crossed too often, imo.
kimbo slice...cool. gave it a shot, didn't work. nothin hurt. James toney? boxing fans who didn't understand mma got to learn a lesson about the importance of being able to control where a fight takes place. one-time deal. nothin hurt.
but you start giving guys title shots when they clearly don't deserve it (i think Chael has got to be the most egregious instance of this in recent times) and it becomes hard to promote yourself as the best fighting the best
in the end you are not going to have a strong base without that legit competition.
Pettis,Diaz and Hendo have been screwed. The rest need to promote themselves better. Interim titles are there for a reason and should be defended.
Title fights aren't just about who has earned them,it's also about who is going to help sales as there are a lot of people who make a living off of the company.
Big ppv numbers = a secure paycheck for Jonny camera man and Dave the octagon assembly manager all the way to Jenny in HR and Tiki Goshen not having to break his bank account to fly and eat during his corner man duties for the count.
How are Pettis, Diaz, and Henderson screwed?
Pettis was promised a title shot for beating Benson but it's not like either of them were anywhere near the #1 contender, or even Top 10 at the time.
Diaz has no one to blame but himself for missing pressers, smoking heefer within weeks of the fight, and failing to adjust to Condit's strategy.
You could make a case for Henderson being screwed I suppose... but at the same time, he did pull out of a title fight at the last minute despite being injured for weeks prior. So again, he is as much to blame as anyone else here.
Pettis wasnt screwed, Maynard/Edgar had a draw, a rematch was needed. He decided to take a fight and lost to Guida, thats on him not the UFC.
Diaz like you said screwed himself. Hendo was screwed out of a shot but had he informed the UFC when he got injured weeks earlier they might have been able to get a replacement, Jones might have taken the Sonnen fight, he doesnt hurt his arm, doesnt have to sit out and hendo could be fighting Jones in Feb for the title.
Amazing that one little thing Hendo could have done could have changed everything. Picking up the phone when he first got hurt could have chanced it all.
MinnowInaMankiniGotAced - "Condit being pulled out in favor of Diaz come to mind"
Huh? Maybe I'm not remembering this right, but wasn't it the other way around? Diaz was first scheduled to fight GSP for the title, Condit was supposed to fight Penn for #1 contender.
Diaz failed to show up for a press conference and was pulled from the fight. Condit was inserted to replace Diaz. GSP called Condit the tougher opponent and thus was pleased with the new challenger.
But then Diaz beat up Penn and called GSP out. GSP became so enraged that he demanded Dana White scrap the Condit fight and instead schedule the Diaz fight. This happened.
Then GSP blew out his knee and pull out of the Diaz fight, setting up Candit vs Diaz.
So Diaz was promised the title fight first, and Diaz was going to get the title fight first if not for a series of out-of-the-ring occurrences that led to Diaz vs Condit.
Don't see how that equates to Condit being passed over as the legit #1 contender... It was beating Diaz that made Condit a legit contender, not Hardy and Dong.
Of course Condit was passed over. He signed to fight GSP, they had a press conference, tickets were sold for the fihgt, but then GSP pulled out wanting to fight Diaz instead. You must be able to see that unless you just don't want to.
Hopefully the Chael/Jones thing is just a TUF ratings scam, and Chael will pull out of the fight with an injury, letting winner of Hendo/Machida or Shogun/Gustafsson step in.
Not that that makes things more legitimate...
less legitimate: chael getting lhw title shot, or zuffa scamming TUF viewers for 6 months on a fight they never intended to put on?
Ratings stunts are ratings stunts, I don't care if their TUF marketing is legitimate or not. I do care if the actual UFC title fights are legitimate.
Chael should be a bare minimum of 4 straight wins in one division away from another title shot.
MinnowInaMankiniGotAced - "but you start giving guys title shots when they clearly don't deserve it (i think Chael has got to be the most egregious instance of this in recent times)"
Is it really worse than Lesnar getting a title shot with a 2-1 record, one of those 2 wins over an aging gatekeeper and the other a can?
I'm gonna be honest, that was before I really started following the sport obsessively, im a newb. but just from looking at it on paper, it is worse than Lesnar. HW division was extremely shallow and didn't have any semblance of a very deserving contender. Sure there were a few guys that probably had done more than lesnar, but who are we looking back at from 08 that really screwed in that deal? That is not the case at lhw. Hendo doesn't have a good chance to beat bones, but he is legit, has strung together some impressive wins the past couple years, and he is getting screwed over. Who REALLY got screwed over when Lesnar got the title shot?
