"but will my underhook arm just get stuck in the whizzer if I try a leg attack when he's whizzering my underhook?"
I'm no Chip Cochran (I'm a LOT sexier in person though) but if your arm gets "stuck" in his wizzer you have some options of your own, including switching the wizzered arm into a seat belt (around his back) and driving to get his near leg off the ground or limp arm it out.
Of course it depends on how good this guy's wizzer is. Some guys use a wizzer as a signature move (in MMA) and are NASTY w/ it...once they start with pop you are sailing.
One of the guys here is about 240 (I'm 190) and strong as an ox...when he fires off a wizzer I'm whiplashing. So when I get my underhook in I do as Chip says, I DO NOT hang around. I am either hitting him, or working an immediate takedown. If I don't, I'm toast.
So hell no don't wait for him to wizzer before responding IMO.
Joe
**As usual, the normal disclaimer that my advice is wrestling/grappling specific, considering strikes in not an area I really feel qualified to discuss...**
OK, I think there might be some confusion here on terminology (I know, I know, one of the problems with wrestling is that terminology is extremely inconsistant from place to place, coach to coach, etc).
The way I've always heard the terms used, there is a big difference between an OVERHOOK and a WHIZZER. I think you seem to be using the terms interchangably, correct?
Overhook: is the flip side of the coin of the underhook... Gaining inside head position and clamping down on the guy's upper arm while on our feet, in a more or less nuetral position, is an overhook.
Whizzer: is a type of defensive measure used when your opponent attacks you at mid-level or lower - possibly used against a low (hip/waist level) bodylock, or leg attacks, usually head inside singles. It involves clamping down on the arm in a way similar to an overhook, but the emphasis is on using it more as a short term lever, rather than as a longer term "control" position - then you turn your hips parrallel (facing in the same direction), but slightly in front of, with your opponent's hips, and pressure down/forward.
Quite different from an overhook (again, that's how *I* define them. The terminology can be a bit loose in wrestling...).
So I think above you are asking about, to me, is an overhook, not a whizzer. My purpose here is not to correct your terminology, because I don't think there is a "correct" terminology, but just to make sure I understand your question. Am I following you correctly...?
If so: YES, I am recommending that you use the underhook IMMEDIATELY to transition to a takedown. If he overhooks you, do NOT wait for him to release it. 1. He might never release it, and 2. I'm impatient. Make it happen!! and 3. I don't just be a sitting duck. He doesn't have a whole lot of offensive options there, but he does have some.
I'll be honest, I usually don't really worry if a guy clamps down an overhook on me. In my experience, overhooks are mediocre offensive tools at best. So I'm really just annoyed because he's negating my underhook. If I can't fight my head back into good position and regain my underhook, I'll generally just relinguish the underhook, back out, and re-attack.
Now, if someone is whizzering you, you can usually just limp arm out. If they are whizzering hard from the feet, using it almost like a judo-ish hip throw kind of thing, go with it. Just go with their momentum and scramble out ot it. (Note: that can be a very dumb thing to do in the international styles of wreslting, but in folkstyle wrestling or submission grappling, no biggie)
OK, have I made ANY sense here?! :)
P.S. - Despite the fact that Joe (Aus) posted some excellent advice above, there is one serious error in his post. I am, in fact, one sexy piece of beefcake. You heard me: beefcake.
Good advice from Chip, even if he doesn't dig cats.
For the clinch as it pertains to MMA, hand control, head position, hip position will create the pressure you need to put him on the defensive.
As Chip pointed out, there is a huge misperception regarding Whizzer vs Overhook, when hitting a Whizzer a lot of coaches will tell you to try to reach for his farside hip with your overhook, (you can't or shouldn't be able to, but try), as this creates the downward/spiral pressure needed to hit the Whizzer.
This is part of the stuff I was showing at the SBG camp for countering knees in MMA, stopping the "jump to guard" in Subwrestling and breaking down/stopping attacks from the underhook.
btw, Chip, ready to come to Illinois? After the baby, of course...., and you get some sleep.
Chip or Paul: I just returned from a training session with my BJJ coach.
We were working wrestling to begin and I got my ass kicked.
I was able to obtain a decent underhook, along with good head
position, several times. What I was not able to do was get inside hip
position. This limited my offence (based on my limited wrestling game)
severely. I was able to drop down and snatch a single numerous times
but his defence on singles is very good so I was screwed there. Because
he had inside hip posistion, he was also able to do an inside reaping
type throw (uchimata) several times too:(
Any suggestion on attack posibilites, based on the above scenario.
Mike
www.SBGi.ca
Disclaimer: He is a way better wrestler than me so I may have been
beat no matter what I tried:)
In order to setup the throw he is using, he has to beat you to hip position, specifically, getting his hips under yours.
Sounds like you are hitting the underhook and running, which is part of what we were talking about when I was coaching the snatch single the Friday night before camp.
Try chaining this to your snatch single, step deep with your near side foot, behind his far side foot, (the one the is on the ground), now sag and you should be able to land the takedown. Chain this with lifting finishes, which are kind of easy to counter, and you should be able to finish the takedown.
I guess, before typing all that I should have asked what he is doing to stop your takedown. Assuming he is A) pushing your head out of position, B) getting his leg out of yours or off your hips, C) hopping on one foot until he does the above...., sagging in should help until he reads and reacts to that one. =)
Thanks for the fast response:)
He was doing a variety of things to counter as I kept trying different
finishes. He would:
1. block his leg to the outside of my thigh, to which I would try to
pressure him to the mat with my shoulder (you know what I mean)?
2. if I had his foot in between my legs he would whizzer and push my
head out of position and then fight for hand control. I would try to
draw his other leg into me, drop to my knees and gather his legs. He
would sprawl to counter that.
I never did get his foot in front of me, like you coached at the camp,
Because of this, I don't think I could do the finish you are describing.
My only success with the underhook was driving him into the wall and
pinning him there (he is training for a fight). I tried to then drop down
for a single or double at that point and rip him out from the wall but
no luck there either:(
Mike
CBK - I'm a judoka and uchimata is my favourite throw. Don't bend over and block him with your left hip.
The gi-version of uchimata:
http://judoclub.ca/mpegs/-100kg.mpg
Paul Sharp
Just wondering if you are still planning to release a DVD series on the clinch. Luis mentioned something about it a while ago. Has it been filmed yet? Will it mainly cover the clinch from an MMA perspective? I am really looking forward to this series.
There are a few instructionals which teach the wrestling clinch. However, they mostly cover establishing an underhook and then spend the majority of the tape showing takedowns from that position.
I guess your series will also cover takedowns from the clinch, however, I am hoping it will also cover, in depth, control in the clinch (not only from the underhook), preventing takedowns (keeping the fight standing), and defending strikes (especially knees). I am also very interested in your opinion on the Thai clinch (strengths and weaknesses) and how one would need to modify it for the MMA environment. And finally, how you would incorrupt the Thai clinch into your overall clinch game, including transitions, and counters to those transitions, between all the positions (wrestling and Thai).
Due to the content of some of your recent posts, I guess you were probably going to include most, if not all, of what I have mentioned above. Just thought it may be helpful to know what one of your future customers is hoping for.
Thanks very much.
Chip Cochran
I know your perspective/expertise is wrestling, however, I am interested in your view of the overhook for mma. More specifically, its use by a fighter who wants to keep the fight standing.
I am interested in its stability and effectiveness in shutting down your opponents takedowns. How easy is it to counter the overhook? You mentioned that it is easier for a novice to establish a relative safe/stable position with the underhook. Is this because the overhook position is inherently less stable or that takedown attempts from the overhook are high risk?
Thanks very much.
Paul, first of all, I like cats just fine. It's just that there's that little issue of my respiratory system going into catastrophic failure if I'm in an enclosed space with a cat, that's all.
And yes, once the little guy gets here and gets settled in, I'd love to come out to Illinois and do some practices/seminars/workouts/drinking/rolling/whatever! The due date is a week and a half away, so that means that my cell phone could start buzzing any time now! (Yikes!)
CBK, it's hard to tell what's going on there when we're going back and forth in text, but it sounds like your instructor is controlling the overhook, rather than you contolling the underhook. Remember: just because you've put your arm under his doesn't mean you have an underhook. Suck it tight, jam in your head to get proper positioning, and get hip positioning. I think I know what you mean by "inside hip position" - but that is actually right where you want him - IF - you are controlling the underhook.
Try this - put your hand on top of his shoulder muscle, then flex your bicep and suck his shoulder in tight, sucking your elbow into your own ribs. Put your forehead in his ear/temple. Get your hips facing into his hips - almost like you're a dog ready to hump his leg. You want everything to be extremely tight. This should also make his nearside foot much heavier/slower on the ground. When he gets space and "wiggle room" is when he can start hitting offense from an overhook. Deny him any space.
Here's another thing that might help...
It's a very simple, basic motion, but it opens up dozens of attacks. Basically, let's say you've got an underhook with your left arm. You hips are tight to the right side of his hips. Step forward with your inside foot (right foot in this case) and windmill your underhook arm HARD backwards (like doing the backstroke) as your hips turn to face outwards (away from opponent). Your head also turns to look the same way, and in the process ends up ducking under his arm. As you're windmilling that arm, you're dropping your level (hips). Windmill your arm all the way around - really exagerate this motion - until you smack yourself on the ass to congratulate yourself on a nice shot. The windmilling motion pulls his arm (and hence the rest of his upperbody) over top of you as you penetrate into/past him.
Now stop and look at your position: you've got SOOO many different ways to finish - you're sitting pretty to finish with a double, a high crotch, a duck under, change off to a head inside single, blah, blah, blah...
Anyway, drill that windmilling motion a few times and see what you come up with. All the cool kids are doing it!
And by the way, look to use the underhook IMMEDIATELY to transition to a takedown. If you jam in an underhook and wait as long as just 2 or 3 seconds, you've given him a lot of time to re-adjust into a defensive posture. If done correctly, you jam in an underhook and are already changing off to an attack while your opponent is still reeling and wondering what to do about your underhook.
melvinferd -
"Is this because the overhook position is inherently less stable or that takedown attempts from the overhook are high risk?"
Excellent question - it's really the former rather than the latter. The overhook position is easy to get to, but it's relatively difficult to mount a really effective offense from there (not necessarily riskier, just more difficult), and even more difficult to simply try to maintain it as a "control" position. Keep in mind that I'm talking about just having using one arm, I'm not talking about being in over/unders which is more of a 50/50 position with your opponent.
If you like to throw hands and want to keep the fight standing, I really think you're better off going with underhooks when you need to clinch/tie-up. It'll be easier to control the man, and shuts down more of his offense. When you have an overhook, you have decent control over his arm, period. When you have a good underhook, you've got excellent control over that arm, and fairly solid control over his hips/torso as well. More control is always a good thing!
Chip: Thank you for the time you spent answering my question.
Ultimately, I think my partner (instructor) just has a better
wrestling game than I do and thus he was able to shut down any
offense. I also think that I was waiting too long before attacking
which was limiting my success.
Thanks again.
Mike
Hi Chip,
thanks very much for your comments, very interesting.
One of the reasons I am interested in the overhook is because of Paul Sharps recent comments on using it to counter knees. After your reply I am now even more interested in Pauls view on this topic.
Paul Sharp, could you please post why the overhook is good for counting knees (also please see the post above concerning your DVD series)
Thanks very much.
melvinferd - "One of the reasons I am interested in the overhook is because of Paul Sharps recent comments on using it to counter knees."
Aha, I see. Well, I should reiterate that my experience is really just with wrestling/grappling. If you're talking about strikes too, I'm sure you're much better off listening to Paul than me. :)
Chip,
Paul highlighted option from the overhook in the context of mma and also to have variables against the underhook since it has become a staple position (moment of transition) in mma.
Melvinferd,
The DVD on clinch for sport grappling (Paul and my guys) will be out this summer but as for the clinch for sport and "self-Defense", look for the set with Paul and the Singer Brothers coming out soon after that. Paul and Adam have some great options and most importantly solid training methods that will be featured on that set and are not shown in such a progression anywhere else that I know of.
-Luis
www.straightblastgym.com
www.onedragon.com