US Meritocracy: poor overachievers = rich f4ck ups

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/10/18/poor-kids-who-do-everything-right-dont-do-better-than-rich-kids-who-do-everything-wrong/?TID+SM_FB

FRAT Version (though it's not that long): Poor college grads can expect the same level of income achievement as rich high school dropouts. Bootstraps!

So it's saying that wealthy families use their money, networks, influence to help their kids out? That would be crazy. (didn't read the article)

IF that's the story, then he should write about water being wet next, because thats just as nutty.

sure, it's obvious, at least to about half this country. how often do you hear that hard work brings success? doesn't this fly right in the fucking face of that tired old bootstrap cliche we hear so often? very few on the right side of that column will acknowledge that they've ever been given anything in life, yet they will take every opportunity to congratulate themselves for hard work and call the poor lazy. you see it every single day on this forum. you'll see it in this thread if anyone can pull themselves out of the tranny threads and the bbc threads.

where you start the race has more influence on where you finish than your hard work. it's always been true and it's only getting worse.

Truth. Phone Post 3.0

ceiling_cat - sure, it's obvious, at least to about half this country. how often do you hear that hard work brings success? doesn't this fly right in the fucking face of that tired old bootstrap cliche we hear so often? very few on the right side of that column will acknowledge that they've ever been given anything in life, yet they will take every opportunity to congratulate themselves for hard work and call the poor lazy. you see it every single day on this forum. you'll see it in this thread if anyone can pull themselves out of the tranny threads and the bbc threads.

where you start the race has more influence on where you finish than your hard work. it's always been true and it's only getting worse.

I disagree with your last sentence. It's always been this way, true, but in the "free world" we can achieve major "social class" changes due to merit and opportunity, probably more than in any other social system of today or the past, that usually have tons of caste and artificial barriers.

Anyone who just says people should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps and denies the fact that everyone has a different "starting point" in the life "race" is either naive or intentionally just ignoring a fact of life.

I believe that the sticking points of this issue, and what causes such debate between people are the following:

1) What and how much of a role should society have in adjusting how things are in order to minimize the variability of these starting points for everyone across groups?

2) Should everyone have the chance at achieving the same things, e.g., level of material wealth?

For 1, I believe that if we aspire to live in a "fair and just" society, we should do whatever is "reasonable" to insure that everyone has a decent chance from the get go. One example would be to have free and standardized (and high quality) early childhood education programs for all kids. You need to get people when they are really young to make a difference. But what is "reasonable" depends on the society.

As for 2, I believe that people should have an "equal" opportunity for greatness, but we need to temper everyone's aspirations and expectations such that they don't get disappointed if their "greatness" is not the same as someone else's.

For example, some people will only ever afford a Seiko watch, whereas others can easily get a Patek Phillipe.

One way to deal with this is to praise individual effort and success, and focus as well on the hardships and trials that someone went through to get those things.

To be consistent with the watch example, the Queen of England wearing a Patek Phillipe watch should be no big deal, whereas that woman that came from a broken home and other significant difficulties that made something positive of her life (and this doesn't have to be "great", she can "just" be a secretary) and was able to afford a nice Seiko is to be admired.

Is it possible to have a capitalist society and this not be true? I've always found this to be an extremely weird argument coming from people who aren't hardcore Marxists. I don't think it's possible to support capitalism and complain about this scenario at the same time without being hypocritical.

ceiling_cat - sure, it's obvious, at least to about half this country. how often do you hear that hard work brings success? doesn't this fly right in the fucking face of that tired old bootstrap cliche we hear so often? very few on the right side of that column will acknowledge that they've ever been given anything in life, yet they will take every opportunity to congratulate themselves for hard work and call the poor lazy. you see it every single day on this forum. you'll see it in this thread if anyone can pull themselves out of the tranny threads and the bbc threads.

where you start the race has more influence on where you finish than your hard work. it's always been true and it's only getting worse.

Sure if your family is wealthy you have a leg up in life but thats hardly anything new.


Neither one of my parents went to college and my Dad has worked at a refinery his whole life in El Paso Texas and has never made 6 figures. My mom kept books for weinershnitzel because it allowed her to stay home with 6 kids. I'm telling you this to paint the picture of where I come from.

All 6 kids went to college, graduated and are doing fine, however, I have one brother that went on to be a doctor (paid for school with loans) and then on to open his own company which has now grown into a half billion dollar company today. My parents had no money, no influence, no networks but my brother worked (works) his ass off and he is usually going to be the smartest guy in the room (dudes blessed big time). His kids will definitely have the privilege of being rich as fuck but he certainly didn't.

If you're SMART and work hard there is no reason you can't be incredibly successful in this country.

What's really funny is he's a democrat to boot.

ttt

Well i for one disagree.

My dad was 15 my mom was 17 and in special education classes. She did not graduate and still has never even achieved a GED.

I went to 14 different schools including 4 in the 6th grade alone. I never lived in the same house for more than a year and rarely in the same town for more than a year. Neither my mom nor step-dad worked. I once paid a $1 fee for a class field trip with a food stamp. We once had 19 people living in a 3 bedroom house.

I had around a 1.2 gpa in high school and had to repeat most of the 10th grade because i had incompletes for not attending school enough.

Then i got my girlfriend pregnant and it WOKE ME THE FUCK UP. Did i use my wealthy family, their money, networks, or influence? No, because there wasn't any to use. I joined the Army, started taking free classes and pretty soon realized if i applied myself i was pretty fucking good at it. So while my buddies were out drinking and trying to slay pussy, i was studying and taking more classes.

I got out, used my G.I. $ and i enrolled in a 4 year university. I got my degree in accounting in a little over 3 years.

I type all of this from my corner office, as a senior accountant for one of the leading accounting firms in my state. Just because it is hard, doesnt mean that it can't be done.

Rantuckjr - Well i for one disagree.

My dad was 15 my mom was 17 and in special education classes. She did not graduate and still has never even achieved a GED.

I went to 14 different schools including 4 in the 6th grade alone. I never lived in the same house for more than a year and rarely in the same town for more than a year. Neither my mom nor step-dad worked. I once paid a $1 fee for a class field trip with a food stamp. We once had 19 people living in a 3 bedroom house.

I had around a 1.2 gpa in high school and had to repeat most of the 10th grade because i had incompletes for not attending school enough.

Then i got my girlfriend pregnant and it WOKE ME THE FUCK UP. Did i use my wealthy family, their money, networks, or influence? No, because there wasn't any to use. I joined the Army, started taking free classes and pretty soon realized if i applied myself i was pretty fucking good at it. So while my buddies were out drinking and trying to slay pussy, i was studying and taking more classes.

I got out, used my G.I. $ and i enrolled in a 4 year university. I got my degree in accounting in a little over 3 years.

I type all of this from my corner office, as a senior accountant for one of the leading accounting firms in my state. Just because it is hard, doesnt mean that it can't be done.

Nice!