:) Fernando, if you watch closely I think you can catch Kimbo on there extolling the praises of Eminem errr. Chase, before he became a UG legend.
"graugart:
probaby the same thing that would've happened to any fighter at that time. KO'ed by knees and elbows.
However, if you had put that same lumpini fighter in a more open environment, like the street or octagon, there's a good chance that the little dragon could edge out the thai fighter with a good groin kick or two."
Anything written here about Bruce Lee is largely speculation. But there are many concrete examples of groin kicks, good or otherwise, not being a deciding factor vs. Thai fighters at this time.
There is a fairly well-known (and documented in one of the major MA mags at the time) incident in which a team of "deadly" kung-fu masters from Hong Kong went to Thailand in the early 1970s. They fought a series of matches against Thai fighters and were all knocked out, usually early in the first round.
They then proceded to return to HK and print interviews about how the gloves kept them from using the deadly crane's beak, tiger claw, pheasant fist, etc, and that the results would have been wholely different in a "street environmnent." The Thais kindly invited them back the next year, this time with no gloves (although the Thais wore them) or restrictions on technique. Exact same results--kung fu masters KOd all night long, usually rather quickly.
Jump to 2004. Fight Randy Couture with groin kicks and eye jabs allowed. 1 out of maybe 1,000 times you will get a freak accident (ala Vitor) or a lucky break (ala the lottery), but otherwise you will simply take a beating, albeit one in which you can, theoretically, kick him in the balls, if that is comforting when you are mounted and being pounded.
Etc.
John Frankl
John:
did any of the thai fighters you mentioned receive groin kicks?
also, I don't think the kung-fu vs. lumpini fighter in a free scenario is a good "speculation" (which is really what this is) about how someone who trained like Bruce would do in a similar scenario.
first of all, bruce didn't train like kf guys at all. No forms, no uniforms, no bowing, no horse stances. In fact, he sought to destroy those traditions because they had nothing to do with fighting.
Bruce used the heavy bag, ran, did intervals, trained weights...pretty much like your typical mma fighter of today. And he trained INTENSELY. This was his life.
If you put a kf guy (with his forms training, horse stances, etc.) against an mt fighter in a free scenario, the mt fighter would destroy the kf fighter even if that mt fighter had one hand tied behind his back. that's just fact.
But if you put a guy who trained the way bruce did (cardio, intervals, weights, proficiency in all ranges, etc.), virtually anything he throws (groin kick, eye jab, cross, knee, headbutt, etc.) will do damage. Not because he's "mighty-invincible" Bruce Lee, but because of the way he trained. The guy trained like a pro athlete.
Bruce wasn't a kung-fu guy by a longshot.
"Bruce used the heavy bag, ran, did intervals, trained weights...pretty much like your typical mma fighter of today. And he trained INTENSELY. This was his life."
while this sounds accurate and in comparison to the traditional martial artists of his era in the USA, BL was indeed years ahead of his time
However it seems to me that these typical Kung Fu/Karate guys were the only type of opponent Bruce Lee could measure his physical attributes and his fighting prowess against. therefore it could be argued that BL had never faced any opponents with the quality of physical attributes, intensity, and functional fighting skills in the clinch and kicking ranges that the world class Thai Boxer would have presented.
i would imagine (and only imagine) that a full power thai kick to the groin would suck just as much as a JKD Nao tek ... and last time i checked, a thai shin block is just as handy at defending low line kicks whether its to the thigh or groin.
thats not even counting the type of pressure and control that could be exerted over a person in the Neck Clinch ... especially against someone who's never been in that type of situation.
I just don't see any type of solo training or attribute development, no matter how phenomenal, being any sort of adequate compensation for lack of time against that kind of pressure.
Again, Christian, it's all speculation. We could discuss this forever, but what's the point, really?
You can say that the thai guy competed 50 times a year, making him an incredible specimen for combat.
I could argue that Bruce would have used one of those judo throws he learned from Gene LeBell (world class judoka) and beaten his opponent on the ground, the ground being a totally unfamiliar territory for the thai fighter.
You put your money on the thai fighter in an open scenario; I put my money on Bruce. Cool. Ultimately, nobody loses their money because Bruce is dead, and all his likely thai opponents are probably dead too.
All I'm saying is that a groin kick is a groin kick; if it lands, it REALLY sucks. Even a groin kick from a 5 year old will take out an adult (watch america's funniest home videos), and that it's unfair to lump bruce in with your typical kf guy, because that's not what he was.
agreed.
but for arguments sake ...
"I could argue that Bruce would have used one of those judo throws he learned from Gene LeBell (world class judoka) and beaten his opponent on the ground, the ground being a totally unfamiliar territory for the thai fighter."
my whole point is that just cuz he 'learned' the mechanics of a move from a great/famous Judoka ... doesn't mean he would be able to use that in the environment its meant for against a fighter (whether its thai-clinch or grappler) who has so many more hours of flight time in that kind of range with that pressure and timing. a lot people think that just cuz famous So-and-So teaches them this that they'll be able to do it just like them and thats obviously not the case unless they've put in the same mat-time as the seasoned fighter/coach.
it was always my impression that BL dabbled in grappling and was not that interested in it. and again, the limited grappling knowledge he had might have been enough to leave an impression on athletes with no grappling background but against seasoned fighters in that range ...
still - its all speculation.
"still - its all speculation."
Yep.
i think everyone is forgetting the armbar he did in enter the dragon *opening sceen) and the arm triangle he did to kareem in game of death - he certainly had explored grappling -
in his person notes that dan inosanto showed me, he has "explore silat" written -
while silat isnt a great grappling art in and of itself, it certainly has many of the same subs as catch or bjj (although, the intent is differnt in silat)
Great post John Frankl.
Pheasant fist!
anyone can learn the mechanics of an armbar in a few minutes and
demonstrate it pretty accurately.
what makes someone good at the armbar is spending many many
hours (years even) training it.
otherwise we could all just get blackbelts by reading and memorizing
technique books.
not sure that b. lee spent that much time of his training on the ground.
As long as we're all just speculating for fun...
Bruce had at least 3 big influences in grappling: Gene LeBell, Wally Jay and Hayward Nishioka. I'm pretty sure that Guro Dan quotes one more Judo guy that is lesser known, but I'd have to go searching through all my notes...no thanks.
Bruce was also an avid student of wrestling, judo, jiu jitsu books, and the like, as well.
Gene LeBell and Hayward Nishioka were both world class in Judo. Nishioka had GREAT respect for Bruce's overall fighting skills. I think Bruce probably got a lot of grappling pressure from these two, at least in grappling.
Dan Inosanto states that Bruce, himself, did not want to be on the ground fighting, but he knew the ground. Bruce preferred the quick takedown and submission and that is what he specialized his training towards.
Joe Lewis said he would never respect any fighter unless he was at least 6' and 200lbs until he met Bruce. Then he even trained with him.
Dan Inosanto said that he saw Bruce spar with some of the best fighters at that time, in Cali of course, and they ALL left red faced.
Bruce met a fencing champion once and they decided to play a little. When they were done, the fencer told Dan Inosanto, "that guy, right now, on timing alone, could be #2 or #3 in the world."
Many, many martial artists that knew Bruce and had trained with him talk of his unbelievable power, speed, footwork, timing, awareness and his ability to read you, shut you down, control the range, etc.
Bruce also had the uncanny ability to see a technique and replicate it. He was a very good visual learner. I think it was Ed Parker that said Bruce could watch a guy do a kick that he had worked for years on, imitate it and just about be as good as the guy on his first try. The second try, he'd do it as good or better.
As far as the Thai fighter goes...
Bruce had seen how Thai's fight and made notes on the subject and took their method into account. Let's not forget, though, that the Thai's were not known for good hand skills back then. The boxing left much to be desired.
The Thai would probably have to get Bruce clinched and be able to stay there to do enough damage. With his timing and speed, this would probably be very hard to do. Since Bruce already knew this about the Thai, he'd probably stay out of this range or by-pass it straight to the takedown.
Bruce had also spent a lot of time putting the "dirty fight" game into the whole mix of boxing, kickboxing, close-range, etc.
Bruce grew up fighting, he was just one of those natural fighters. We've all seen 'em, guys who can fight well even without training. But, he kept learning and tried to improve himself in every way.
This is all just for fun of course and I don't know what would have happened and it doesn't matter. One thing I do know, though: if he did fight a Thai fighter and got beat, it would've only happened once!
SReiter,
i don't think its an armbar in that opening sequence of ETD though it looks that way cuz of the extended arm (of Sammo Hung? i believe) the pressure wasn't there it was on the neck. i believe it wsa some sort of crucifix variation (if you check it again)
as for Lebell and Nishioka being impressed with BL's abilities ... of course they would be! he's probably one of the most phenomenal strikers they (or anyone else have) ever witnessed. but to say that their favorable impression of him in that respect had anything to do with grappling ability that is in no way documented is a bit of a stretch. its not that difficult to impress grapplers with striking, and vice-versa. i'd be impressed if either of those 2 had ever said that BL effortlessly double legged them or hip threw them and submitted them on the mat. you're talking apples and oranges there!
and of course - Long live the Pheasant Fist!
WAAAAHHHH - TAAAHHHHHH ! ! !
Yes, it was a crucifix or "stocks" variation.
"you're talking apples and oranges there!"
Well, of course, IF I was making that comparison. Nishioka was impressed with Bruce as an overall fighter. Look at fights today when a really good striker understands range and distance and wants to keep the fight on the feet. A grappler has a very hard time getting to the ground. So, IF Bruce knew the game well enough, it would be difficult getting him to that range. IF he connected with a solid strike, many said that Bruce hit like a heavyweight.
A Thai fighter would know NOTHING of grappling and would have no defense for it.
Now, I've gotta go get my yellow tracksuit on and teach class. :)
Dan Inosanto was a BB in Judo before he met Bruce (IIRC it was his first ever BB) - so Dan might have shown bruce some judo too -
Sammo Hung rocks!!!! Should wear more clothes though...
I think comparing BL to today's fighters is silly. He was probably a good fighter for his day, and definitely the revolutionary force behind change during his day, but to compare him to todays MMA fighters would be like comparing a Springfield 1903 versus a Heckler and Koch G36. There is no comparision. As good of a car was the 1969 Shelby Cobra, it couldn't hold a candle to some of the supercars of today. The 0-100-0 record of 14 seconds can be reached by many of the original equipment cars made available. So, to sum it up, BL couldn't hold a candle to today's fighers.
"I'm pretty sure that Guro Dan quotes one more Judo guy that is lesser known, but I'd have to go searching through all my notes...no thanks."
I remember reading an article YEARS ago that stated that Bruce had trained Judo with someone named Kato (really!) in the Pacific NW. I believe it might have been a college course he took for a semester.
-Kev
bruce lee was the prototype for mma fighters today. he was just ahead of his time. look at the way he trained. exactly like fighters do today. even when the first ufc's came out people were still closed minded...grappling was considered king and only in the last couple years has everyone embraced the concept of cross training. one dimensional fighters are easily beaten now.
i know guys that are great jiu-jitsu players and watched them get killed in their first mmma fights, because of that outdated belief in one style is best. itslike they were stuck in ufc 1-4 mode, and couldn't branch out
go re read the tao of jkd and tell me you couldn't apply it all to mma.