JSMHP,
Very well put.
"Rickson was his own man, he wouldnt take marching orders from Rorion."
That is speculation, cant be proved.
I think he would have done it, in fact i read an article that said he wanted to, but he was to big and brutal so they decided to go with the skinny guy. At that time they were all at the academy in Torrance and on good terms, why would he not want to help market his family's martial art?
sperry fought tougher guys than royce that knew what BJJ was... the game had already changed by then.
From: Viet Rounder
Date: 04/18/07 05:34 PM
Member Since: 05/22/2006
107 Total Posts Ignore User
""Royce was not special among nhb jiu-jitsu fighters at the time; he was special in the UFC because of his unknown game plan."
That's funny, I don't think many people knew what Sperry's game plan was either. He was supposed to be the Michael Jordan of the sport with skill level leaps and bounds above Royce. Yet he was demolished in his 2nd American MMA debut (admited that he gassed after 4 minutes)."
Are you just making this up or have you actually seen that fight (against Igor I assume). I watched it on live PPV and Sperry completely dominated the fight, got smacked in a scramble with a knee to the eye and gushed blood. The fact that Igor was about 3 times better and tougher than anyone Royce had fought around that time frame had alot to do with the way the two guys compare from a MMA perspective.
I honestly think zienoviev would have whipped Royce badly during the same era where he beat Sperry, but dont get any silly ideas, he didnt "demolish" sperry. He was in fantastic shape and was as tough a person as I have ever seen fight MMA, which had ALOT to do with sperry gassing and getting smacked late.
That said Sperry was more a top game points man in sport BJJ, and that doesnt always translate well to MMA where you might be on bottom the whole fight (Wallid was the best example of this playing poorly for the BJJ man).
i don't think wallid could have beaten a few of royce's opponents, though i'm sure he is considered a better sport bjj guy (even choked out royce of course)
Royce was the man....he didn't have the best Jiu Jitsu in the world, he didn't even have the best Jiu Jitsu in his own family...but he had balls and heart and a never give up attitude.
people keep forgetting that sport bjj and vale tudo bjj are two different things. just because can beat some big MMA fighter in a jiu jitsu tournament doesn't mean you can beat him in the cage.
one of the biggest things holding back royces sport BJJ development was because he spent so much time training and competing MMA. how would you suddenly expect another sport BBJ specialist with ZERO mma training/experience to be better at MMA than royce. we saw several try, and fail miserably.
Alright LOOK.
The reason we do BJJ in the WORLD= ROYCE GRACIE
The Reason there is even a UFC= Royce/Rorion GRACIE
The reason this f*cking website EXISTS (it IS an MMA website guys!) =ROYCE GRACIE
The reason MMA Guys even EXIST PERIOD in the USA= ROYCE GRACIE
People would stil be talking about Bruce Lee, Steven Segal and any other martial arts actor that put out a film if it weren't for, you guessed it!
ROYCE GRACIE
How you can question a man that changed the entire WORLD of martial arts forever is completely beyond me.
We are here as a direct result of those fights and HIS victories. Don't KID YOURSELVES. This whole MARKET wouldn't exist without him doing what he did.
Respect of the highest level should be paid. He changed all of our lives! Who is MORE SPECIAL?!?
You guys are unbelievable sometimes. Take those fights out of history and think about what you would probably be doing /train in now. I'll wait...
Rickson didn't do it cause he actually has some muscle on him, and selling gracie jiu-jitsu as the everyman equalizer works better with a lanky "regular" guy
Thank you.
plz refer to post number two of this thread.
"But was Royce anything special."
BAN!
"How you can question a man that changed the entire WORLD of martial arts forever is completely beyond me."
I guess asking questions and forming your own opinion is "beyond you". You did know that these fights have been happening in Brazil since before Royce was a sperm in Helio's sac,right? And there were probably dozen's of guys like Royce. He just got picked to fight in the UFC and got famous. I think Ralph would have done just as good,same build as Royce, just shorter.
Royce was definitely special and is one of the greats in our sport.
Royce proved that a guy skilled in BJJ and BJJ only could defeat all other opponents versed in Karate, wrestling, boxing, etc despite size or strength advantages.
The guy had a family name and an entire martial arts system riding on his shoulders. If he would have lost in the first or second UFC, it would have been a huge blow to BJJ, especially in the United States.
There has never been more pressure on a fighter to excel in NHB, yet Royce was able to win and make BJJ and NHB what it is today.
I for one do not believe that just any BJJ practioner at the time could have done what Royce did. For people to discount his mental and physical toughness is a joke because more talented guys have folded because they did not possess those attributes.
"I honestly think zienoviev would have whipped Royce badly during the same era where he beat Sperry, but dont get any silly ideas, he didnt "demolish" sperry. He was in fantastic shape and was as tough a person as I have ever seen fight MMA, which had ALOT to do with sperry gassing and getting smacked late."
Perhaps demolished is an over-exageration but IMO not by far. Sperry got the takedowns and positioning, but that really doesn't play much in the old days of NHB. Igor on the otherhand, though being out positioned for the duration of the fight did managed to get 1 really good shot and submission (debatable or not) that made Sperry look like a mess. That is really what counts base on the early NHB days. At the end, Sperry was way more exhausted and very bloodied.
I like Igor, but I don't think he would have much on Royce at the time. Royce is known for his legendary long battles (win or lose) and never showed any sign of fatigue like the way Sperry did. The early day Ken Shamrock and Dan Severn were way more of a threat.
"And there were probably dozen's of guys like Royce. He just got picked to fight in the UFC and got famous. I think Ralph would have done just as good,same build as Royce, just shorter."
You make it sound as if Royce was selected without any serious thought and that the glory was just given to him. I am sure Rorian made an accurate and very calculated decision. Remember, ALexander the Great was given the kingdom of Macedon but it goes beyond what you inherited to conquer the Persian Empire.
Ralph, while being a badass, I think would have serious trouble with Hackney, Kimo, Shamrock, and Severn. Not saying that he will lose but based on his aggressive style would most likely gotten burned out by the finals.
"RetiredGrappler"
I've been training J-jj, judo, and GJJ for 13 years.
I train with one of Relson Gracie's first Black Belts, lived in Brasil for 3 month stints and was a live in student of my instructor in Brasil. I'm a Brown belt also(GJJ)
Yes I know about Brasilian Vale Tudo.
My point was that you can't underestimate this impact and to try to say "well, he wasn't THAT great"
isn't just misinformed and disrespectful, it's just IGNORANT.
He's not even CLOSE to one of my favorite fighters but the truth is there isn't a SINGLE MARTIAL ARTIST out there that has done more to change martial arts since Jigoro Kano than Royce Gracie. And I mean on a WORLD LEVEL.
Royce Gracie handpicked his opponents in the first UFCs. That is the reason why he was successful. He was an average fighter even though is BJJ was good.
However, the Gracie family's contribution to the UFC and the success of MMA today cannot be ignored.
If Royce is not considered an inspiring, special person, then I don't know who is.
I know I am not alone. Just check out when he posts here. The forum goes crazy for a reason.
He's the man.
"Royce Gracie handpicked his opponents in the first UFCs. That is the reason why he was successful"
If I was Royce and hand-picked my opponents, KIMO, Shamrock, Pat Smith, Hackney, and Severn would definitely not be on the list. These guys may not have the skills to beat him but they definitely have enough power and tools to re-locate Royce's victory party to the ER Room.
So are you complimenting Royce being brave or are you saying that he should have picked a modern day Frank Shamrock to roll around with?