We fight back: f**ked in court?

Guys, sometimes i have to hold it back hardcore when provoked, because I've heard of the nighmarish stories of people like us (with training) fighting back, and being sued for beind "deadly machines".

What gives? I'd like to hear more hindsights..sometimes I feel i let punks get away with shit too easily...but I did hear stories of people getting SCREWED in court because of their fighting knowledge...

Comments appreciated as usual

Someone talks shit or pushes you, and you jab his nose off...what's the risk? Once prosecutors find out about our fighting-expertise, i feel they're gonna eat us alive...


"Someone talks shit or pushes you, and you jab his nose off...what's the risk?"

Well if someone talks shit to you, it's just that....talk. I understand how some people can say crap that pisses you off and they could use a beating, but the real world isn't highschool. You can't use physical force for verbal confrontations.

Now, if the guy starts swinging at you, then that's a different story. But, if you drive some guy into the ground cause he "talked shit" to you, you're probably going to spend some time in jail.

the fight was over, you restarted it, so yes fair.

If someone is talking shit they don't know shit about fighting anyway. Good fighters don't talk shit, they just fight. The law makes a distinction between self-defense and retribution. Even if someone attacks you with a knife, if you disarm them, throw them down, and then take the knife, (whatever order) and then use the knife on them, it is no longer self-defense, its retribution. GnPing someones head into the street is not self-defense, as soon as he is down and you are in control, any punishment you give is retribution (in the eyes of law.) The law also makes a huge distinction between those who have training and those who don't. The law will use different criteria for Martial Artists. And this includes everything from boxing to tai-chi. We have to be super careful b/c you can get screwed. Best case scenario, if you go to court, you end up paying out the ass for legal fees. We have a few lawyers in our class, this is what they tell me.

"But Dad ppl don't sue."

***But son this ess Amerika, evrybody sues....

***But son this ess Amerika, evrybody sues....Minor mistake. It is spelled America.Btw, do you want that plane ticket?

Nice timing... i go to court monday morning. wish me luck.

I don't know about the U.S. but in Canada you can replied with equal or lesser strenght. For example if the guys pushes, you can't break his nose and say in court that it was self-defense. If the guy swings at you, then you can hit him but don't kill him!! It won't be self-defense anymore.

What if someone throws at waterballoon at you lol, that ship happened to me yesterday, and the stupid fucker did it JUST before hitting a red light 10 meters away from me, i stood there for about 2 seconds thinkinf if i should start shit, but i figured since it didn´t even hit me, and the car had 3 guys in it i´d be better off not to :)

But lets say i would have gone and started shit, and for simplicity lets say there were only one guy and i beat him up, would i still be screwed in court?

Yes, you would be. I watched a similar case where some punk in a truck threw a rock and KOd a guy, his friend chased the dude down and beat the shit out of him. I'm not sure if the rock thrower even got in trouble but the guy that beat him up got Screwed.

I have practiced martial arts for more than 20 years and prosecuted criminal cases for 15 - it all boils down to "what can you prove." Here's how a MMA'er can get in trouble in court.

Ever State in the Union has a legal defense of self defense. It is usually found in a statute, but jurors only hear it in a jury instruction. Here is an edited portion of the jury instruction from Tennessee:

"When a person is assaulted, by the use of force, in such a way as to create in his mind a reasonable belief that he is in imminent and actual danger of serious bodily injury, he will be justified in threatening, using force to defend himself even to the extent of killing another human being. The threat of force can only be to the degree reasonably believed to be immediately necessary to protect against the other's use attempted use of unlawful force. The danger creating the belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury must be real, or honestly believed to be real at the time, and must be founded upon reasonable grounds. "

The question always becomes, can you prove that you had the right to exercise your to self defense?

Q.1 did you have a reasonable belief that you were in imminent and actual danger of serious bodily injury?

Q.2 was the force used against the aggressor necessary to protect against the unlawful use of force? (did you use too much force against the other?)

Q.3 was your belief that you were in danger reasonable?

here's how my cross exam of a mixed martial artist goes . . .
Q. Mr. MMA, how tall are you?
A. 5'10"
Q. How much do you weigh?
A. 195 lbs.
Q. your in relatively good shape ?
A. (smirk!) yes.
Q. well, a lot better than me. (a year ago, I would pat my gut and smile at the fattest juror. Can't do that anymore . . . well, not very well anymore . )
A. (smirk!) of course.

Q. Now, Mr. MMA, I understand you enjoy MMA?
A. yes,
Q. That means "Mixed Martial Arts", doesn't it?
A. yes, that's correct (smile)
Q. Like (H)Royce Gracie?
A. Yes
Q. That's (no holds barred) cage fighting, like in the UFC?
A. Yes (or not really- depending on how cagey/smart the defendant is.)
(Q. Human cock fights? - this question depends on who the judge is and how well my is going, including how bad/bloody the photographs of the victim are. If the photos are good/bloody and swollen and the case is going well - I don't ask this one!)

Q. How often do you work out?
A. about 5-7 times a week
Q you practice ? fill in the following, the number depends on the perceived patience of the Judge and jurors. On the heavy bag/ punching, kicking, blocking punches/kicks. Clinches/takedowns, throws, grappling, sparring/ Muay Thai/ kickboxing/ submission holds/chokes?
A/ yes/yes/yes, etc.

Q. How may years have you trained?
a. 4-10 years
Q. How many actual fights have you had?
A. 3-15
Q. how much were you paid?
A. (whatever)
Q. You do this for fun and/or money?
A. yes, (smiles) and the excitement
Q. For the excitement, eh? I'm sorry, my hearing is not good anymore? Was that your answer?
A. Yes.

Q. Now, all these fights you been in, and all these years your training, you mean to tell these jurors that you were afraid of Mr. Victim, when he said (I look for a paper, finds it, hold it up and read from it) "I will kick your @ss, you !@#$% @#$%%'er"
A. yes, I was afraid.
Q. you were afraid?
A yes,
Q. I thought you practiced fighting all the time?
A. (who cares what the answer is – If I cared, I wouldn't have asked the question!)

Q. do you think the force you used was reasonable? (if the victim has a broken jaw, cheekbone, nose, ribs, or black eye, etc.)
A. yes
Q. (Now, I ask questions about lots of questions about non-striking, self defense techniques. Either you know 'em, or you don't. If you don't, I ask you questions about why your don't train in those techniques) – It's because you don't care about self defense? Right?
Q. And now, you're trying to say, you used reasonable force, in self defense, right?
Q. (if you do train in non striking, self defense techniques, there are no bloody photos – an I am not in the courtroom that day . . . because you took a diversion plea on a misdemeanor or I dismissed the case.)

Q. Now you expect these juror to belief that you use of force was reasonable?
A. yes
Q. but, your used of force resulted in these injuries?
A . . . . . . . yes . . . . . . .
(At this time, I put the diagrams from the medical report of the victim and his photos up. They are either in large scale photos or projected on a screen.)
Q.Yonner, (that's East Tennessee for Your Honor – referring to the Judge) can I have a second to check my notes . . . ?
(time ticks by while I act like I am reviewing my notes – I might be reviewing my notes, but I might not have any. I can do this cross exam in my sleep with half my mind tied behind my back after 15 years . . .)
(I'll really just letting the jurors look at the injury in juxtaposition to the defendant MMA'er answer that his use of force was reasonable.

I finish with:
"Thank your, Yonner, I have no further questions . . . ." and I sit DOWN.

So you're just trying to convince the jury that if someone is experienced in MMA then they couldn't possibly perceive an imminent threat (etc) from another individual?

How would you deal with a victim/assailant who are relatively close in size and a Def on the stand who says that he had no way of knowing what type of training the victim had?

What if he draws a distinction, in front of the jury, between an MMA fight for which he has trained and is prepared, and a confrontation on the street which takes him by surprise.

How often does the jury buy the "he trains MMA so was he really afraid?" line of questioning? I would imagine pretty often.

Good questions.
I haven't tried any martial artists who would admit they were martial artist for assault. But, the question of whether they were really afraid is something I would raise during cross examination.

I wouldn't touch the question of size if the defendant and victim were close in size. I would simple present evidence that they were close in size. With today's perception of martial artists, I wouldn't much care about size unless the victim was huge compared to the defendant/MMA'er.

I think he would testify that there is a distinction between fighting on the street and fighting at a show - but, everyone is already aware of that. I also know that most boxers that were tried for assault in the past had poor results - ie, were convicted.

The most important thing to realize is that self defense is an affirmative defense. That means the accused has to PROVE that it was justified. It helps to have witnesses. You got to get the witnesses to court. (Drinking buddies don't always show up if they have to miss work!) You have to prove that it was reasonable that you were afraid of the attack. Finally, you have to prove that you didn't overreact - ie, break the guys nose, arm and ribs, when he just cussed you.

self defense= just choke him out cold and leave while he is sleeping. A nice t shirt gi choke would work kidding I find myself laughing and walking away 99 out of 100 times. If I am not physically being attacked (punched ,kicked or grabbed I will leave the situation, unless it is a group of friends at a out door bon fire of some other hillbilly event then the BJJ kicks in and I'll pull guard in the pasture and school 'm

best case for self defense is if you do anything you can to aviod the conflict including leaving the seen.

my 2 cents

Conclusion: avoid fighting in the streets at all friggin' cost.

Don't be there when the cops show up! When I worked as a bouncer, every person involved was arrested when the cops came. Every person that left before the cops got there went on there merry way.

There is the story of Matt Hall. A pro wrestler BJJ brown belt that was scouted by WWF. A couple of days later he jacked somebody up on the side of the road.
The WWF sent him a contract and he was not able to sign it because he had a five year stint to serve for the roadside beating. He should be getting out soon if he is not already out. Definatly not worth it.

The first style of jujitsu I learned from a police officer. He used very painful wristlock/ throws routinely to handcuff suspects. He said the defendants used to allege police brutality. They would describe the techniques to the judge and cry, "but it really hurt" and flap their hand and bend their wrists at the judge. The gavel would fall and they'd be removed from the courtroom.