Alright well this is the first time i post in this forum but id like to know other peoples opinnion on this...
Well here's the deal...i started lifting weights at some gym sometime ago. I would work out each muscle once a week. This went really well as i put on 40 lbs of muscle and got great results just from following the trainers instructions.
About a month ago i had to change gyms and at the new gym the trainer says that u should work out each muscle twice a week!? Like he gave me a program where i do bench press on 1 day then 2 days later i do more exercises for the pecs. This really surprised me cause i was used to the other way (train each muscle 1/week), but he says that i will get better results by training his way....
Pesonally it seems to me that the muscle needs alot more time to recuperate after a good workout...
What do u guys think?
Exactly what i was thinking...sometimes after 2 days i can still be abit sore from my last workout...it just seems crazy to me to train the same muscle again
But according to my new trainer thats the way to do it!?
Different trainers different ideas and styles.
Some people like to hit each body part 2x a week and others not.
Me I do 3 OL work outs a week and BP one day, Wide grip pull ups the next session, dips one session then one session. Or one conditioning session I do wide grip pullups, dips, rows, abb stuff.
Koing
Some routines that are more geared towards hypertrophy will have you work the same body part 3x a week, albeit you are only using your RM (5-10-15) during the last workout of each micro-cycle (2 weeks / 6 workouts using 15 reps; 2 weeks / 6 workouts using 10 reps; etc.) Check out hypertrophy-specific.com for an example.
Peace.
-Savage
Some workouts geared towards power, hypertrophy, or endurance have you working out the same muscle groups 3-6 days per week. Take a look at Scrapper, Taku (debatable i guess), Pavel, Wiggy, or anyone else that knows what they're talking about.
Training the muscle groups frequently is probably the BEST option for ATHLETES as long as it is done properly.
-doug-
"Training the muscle groups frequently is probably
the BEST option for ATHLETES as long as it is
done properly."
I would add to this--that it depends on what your
goals are in training. For example:
Hypertrophy
Absolute Strength
Strength-endurance
Speed-strength, et cetera, all "need" different
training methods, as their focus and requirements
are all different.
What are your goals? This should define what &
how you are training.
Chuck
I mentioned the first three of those things chuck. Take another read.
For hypertrophy i think a program like wiggy's or some of scrap's would be best for gaining size as it relates to athleticism. Certainly this is different from a body building regime but, then again im not particularly interested in investing much time into THAT discussion.
For absolute strength i think Pavel's stuff is top notch and i think that westside is next to unbeatable if you look at the scores (although westside is TWO days per week if i understand correctly).
For muscular endurance (with an emphasis on the ability to maintain high levels of strength at the END of a routine/match), again i think wiggy's stuff or scrap's is the best sort of routine.
For Explosive strength, i'd say most forms of olympic lifting would do just fine, and i do beleive these should be performed on a frequent basis as well.
In any case, i have yet to see many athletic routines that dont have a high frequency for most muscles involved. Not one's that are effective anyway.
-doug-
I agree that increasing your training frequency probably will not hurt you at all. Tyson- soreness is a poor determinant of whether or not you should train (unless it is so bad you are having pain just sitting around and doing easy day to day activities). Most athletes train body parts more than once a week. You should also be using compound exercises, so expecting not to hit a muscle group more than once a week is not very realistic. Give your new trainers plan an honest try, or better yet, buy some good books and read and learn how to effectively train yourself.
Thanks alot for all the info guys, it really helped me out actually.
To answer u chuck my goals are no longer to increase in size (guess i should of mentioned that first sorry).. right now im boxing at the 175 weight class and i wish to remain there, so power and speed would be my goals obviously. From what i understand it seems that most of u are saying that from and athletic point of view my new program is infact better (each muscle 2x/week). So i suppose i should stick with it then.
Again thanks for the help everyone, i have been training for a while and gotten great results as i said but i basically just followed my trainer, so im still not very familiar with the "science" behind it i guess.
...im alot more confident about my program now thats great.
If anyone still has suggestion please feel free to post...any help is appreciated;)
...and natrondaninja i always thought that if u were sore its because ur muscle hadn't completely healed yet, so i figured that training it again would be over-training... well atleast thats what i though. So if for example biceps are not ridiculously sore, but sore none the less, its alright right for me to train them again?
DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) is not a symptom of overtraining, which is mainly a nervous factor.
If you want a routine for boxing, chuck is the guy to ask.
-doug-
"Tyson- soreness is a poor determinant of whether or not you should train (unless it is so bad you are having pain just sitting around and doing easy day to day activities)."
I get sore when I don't train in 7 days at all with total rest. When I come back and OL and squat heavy my legs feel beat. Reminds me to never not stop training in a 7 day period!
Koing
Doug,
Sorry I was reading fast :-( my bad.
Thanks for the plug.
Chuck
Chuck,
according to vermonter u are the person to ask for a routine for boxing...would have any sort of suggestion for weight lifting in general, not just about the frequency but other things too? Things i should do/ things to avoid? any suggestion would be greatly appreciated?
Tyson86,
A lot of it depends on where you are in your
training.
For example whether you are competing or not, or
"just" boxing as a way to get and stay in shape.
That being said, I am a big believer in periodizing &
cycling for the athletes I have trained, as well as for
myself.
For periodization, I tend to use an intuitive model,
unless the athlete is into competition, in which
case I will use a more "structured" approach--you
know Macro, meso & micro cycles.
For Cycling, which for me is only used with an
intuitive approach (not the same as above) I would
work a particular series of exercises for a definite
time period, say 4-12 weeks depending on the
needs of the athlete. I would vary the intensity
during the cycle depending on how the athlete is
feeling, and "obvious" energy drain (Intuitive).
_________________
Now, all that mouthful out of the way--lifting
depends on how often you are boxing (a big factor!
As you are, and should be getting most of your
"conditioning" through your training).
If you are (boxing) training 4-6 days a week, I would
limit your lifting to twice a week, to keep from over
training. I would also limit the amount of total time
spent lifting to 30-45 minutes per session, for the
same reason. The next thing I would express is
that I prefer compound lifts to simple-angle lifts.
For example, I think a Hang Clean Push Press is
vastly superior to a simple Military Press (for
combat athletics), in that it gets more joint (overlay)
recruitment than performing a standard MP. Boxing
is a whole body sport-- you'll rarely (if ever) just
punch with your arm, all that force is translated up
from your feet--through your carriage--and out your
fist. Why lift in a way that is antithetical to the rest of
your training?
Whew! Almost there :-) For the rest of it, I would
use the basic lifts (MP, Deadlift, Squat, Pulls, Dips,
Bench--though I'm not a big fan of it--), as my
template, and then find compound lifts that involve
as much of the whole body as possible to train, to
take their place. I should also say that this is for
GPP training.
Also, If the athlete I was working with had specific
body composition--and/or problem muscular
areas I would target them with specific exercises
and strategies to alleviate them.
____________________
I just read this mouthful to my wife--who made a
face at me when I was done-- she told me there
are a lot of words here, and that hopefully they will
make sense to you. :-)
If you have any questions please ask. . .
Lastly, to give you and idea of a training model,
here is the one I am on right now, and am about to
finish:
M-W-F
AM
Run, DROM session (45 minutes),
(One day a week I perform Tabata intervals)
M-W-F
PM
Skill Training (1-1 1/2 hr)
T-Thurs-Sat
AM (1-1 1/2 hr)
DROM session
Skill Training
Tuesday
PM
Lift:
Hang Clean Push Press,
Windmill,
Deadlift,
Weighted Dips,
Sat:
PM
Lift
Bench,
Pull ups (or Chins),
Squats,
Full Contact Twists,
Thursday
PM
(If I perform at all, it will be BWE only:
Hindu Push ups, Offset push ups, Core exercise,
et cetera)
Hope this helps,
Chuck
Thanks so much for ur time Chuck;
And yes i am competing on an amature level now with only 3 fights so far
Oh ya and im really sorry but its just that i dont know the exact english names of the excersise cause i live in mcgdog so i don't really know the english terminology that well. I speak perfect english its just that everything around me is in french (my training too)...if u have time and u want of course would there be anyway u could repeat ur example training model, but just give maybe abit of the description of the exersise (im sure ill recognize them), its just all the names of the exersises i know r french.
And to tell u i train boxing on Tuesday, Wed, Thursday: this involves about a 3 km run before and then i guess a total of 2 hours of skill training/ sparring etc...
*This is something i can't change, i wish i could train boxing more then 3 days a week but i can't, it has to do with the building we train in and thats the only possibility we have unfortunately.
And so i train weight lifting monday, friday, saturday and of course do some more cardio during the week.
And also one question i have: is it better to jog in the morning when i wake up? i know lots of people do this but i normally jog when i get back home after school... is there an advantage to this?
Thanks again alot for ur help.
Oh ya and where it says i live in "mcgdog", its supposed to say Q u e b e c...only without the spaces of coures... sorry my comp is messed up and changes the letters of my city when i write it without spaces
dont ask me why it does that cause i have absolutely NO idea lol..its really weird.
Everyone responds differently. Some get better growth with a greater frequency. Also depends on alot of factors like caloric intake, gear usage, you job, how much sleep you are getting etc.
Tyson,
You should come down and train some Brazilian Jiu Jutsu with my crew. 5 days a week ;) Only about 45 minutes from montreal! We've got a HUGE kickboxer that spars during open mat on wednesdays. He's maybe 6'3" 250. All muscle. Kickboxes like a motherfucker.
There's a good BJJ place in montreal too. I dont know much about boxing schools though, sorry.
-doug-
Tyson86,
Sorry I took so long to get back to you. I was out of
town yesterday.
I don't generally create programs for athletes over
the Internet, as there is A LOT I don't know about
them, their capacities, and their training
methodology.
That being said: I did put something together
however--just for fun, and if you can use it, cool, if
not that's cool to. What I would say is use what I
am about to give as a template and create your
own protocol.
Since I don't know you, and I don't know where you
are in your training (macro, meso or micro) I used
a more intuitive model that I have had some
success with.
In the intuitive model, one of the main things to be
aware of is your fatigue levels. So watch your
energy expenditure. If you feel like you're over doing
it, take some time off (unless getting ready for a
competition--follow your coaches advice for that).
So, if you were an athlete I was training, along with
your limits to the gym, et cetera (based on the
information you gave) the pre-competition program
I would put together would look like this:
Monday
AM:
1.5k run, then Taku's or Tabata Intervals, DROM
PM:
Lift
Tuesday
AM:
DROM
PM:
3k run,
Boxing
Wednesday
AM:
DROM
PM:
3k run,
Boxing
Thursday
AM:
DROM
PM:
3k run,
Boxing
Friday
AM:
1.5k run, then Taku's or Tabata Intervals,
DROM
PM:
5k Run, or
BWE (no more than 30-45 minutes total--don't kill
yourself, but don't slack too much either).
Saturday
AM:
DROM
PM:
Lift
Sunday
OFF
Please remember that this is a pre-competition
template. If you are not near a competition I would
mellow some of this out. Cut some of the intervals,
for example, and take time off when I feeling
fatigued.
Some caveats:
When you lift, never sacrifice limit (absolute)
strength for mobility.
Never kid-glove the program. Remember that you
alone are responsible for your own condition. I
have no idea, nor is it possible for ANYONE to
prescribe an exercise selection or program design
with 100% accuracy. It's all (educated) guesswork.
I would also recommend that you create a
Personal Training Log (if you haven't already) to
keep track of where you are at in your training. It will
help keep you honest about your performance.
As you can see with the training template above, I
am BIG believer in DROM sessions. I am 41 years
old and have been doing this for a long time, and
neither myself nor any of my athletes I have trained
has suffered any significant joint problems over the
years. Competitive boxing is a "short lived" activity,
don't neglect your overall health in its pursuit. Keep
your joints in shape and you can box (and keep
your over all health and mobility) for a much longer
time than competition.
Continued. . .