Awesome story...gives us all something to sleep on.
A big TTT.
Awesome story...gives us all something to sleep on.
Last night was a night I will remember for quite a while, and I wanted to share it with you and the MA forum.
It was a Friday night, and we were wishing my friend a "bon voyage" as he and his unit are leaving to Bosnia, for a six month tour, on Wednesday. There were 12 of us, and we all went to a local watering hole. My friend that is leaving to play "peace keeper" got a little too deep in the sauce, and we had to leave a little early. We returned to his apartment (don't worry, walking distance) and waited for the rest of the group to return.
A few hours later, most of the group had returned except for two (one guy, one girl). Then all of sudden, they both came running in the apartment, screaming that they just been held up at knife point. All we could get out of them, between cries and screaming, was that the male was held by two punks and the female was threatened with the knife. And the SOBs were still outside.
Well, needless to say, we (9 of us) stormed out of the apartment to even things up.
I couldn't find my damn shoes! When everybody ran out, my shoes got kicked into the hallway, and it took me a few moments to get out there. I got out there and my friends had gotten bats and squeegees(whatever) and were ready to pummel these punks.
There I am, my buddies breathing fire and the punks white with fear (they had reason to be scared!), in the middle of this shit, and all of a sudden a little voice says to me "I will do what I can to avoid confrontation with as little violence occurring to myself and my attacker". Your directive. "If they talk, they can be persuaded to walk". "Don't invite disaster". I don't know what it was. We had all the reason in the world to get even, but that little voice told me that this was not right.
I know that my two friends were jumped, but they were not injured or did not have anything stolen. They were shaken up, but not hurt. They came outside, and told us to just let the punks go.
The punks that had jumped my friends were yelling and pleading that they were just joking around. We obviously scared the hell out of them. They started to shake and cry. Obviuosly they were on something, but I knew they were preparing themselves for the beating of their lives.
I was probably one of the few people that was sober, and I attempted to take charge of the scene. Going on the fact that my friends were OK, and the punks definitely got the point, I felt that we accomplished what we wanted to accomplish. My friends felt they scared off the punks, and no one got hurt.
Everybody walked away, and the punks went back where they came from. Or so we thought. No sooner did we leave them, the same SOB that had pulled the knife on my friend got into a fight with someone else just down the block. We could hear them yelling at each other. All of sudden we hear that the punk pulled the knife, that he said he didn't have, and stabbed the other guy in the leg. Long story short, the police and ambulance showed up and the punks were no where to be found! My friends gave statements to the police and the poor guy that was stabbed was taken away by ambulance.
Now, here's the problem. I felt pretty proud of myself that I helped avoid a potentially violent and serious situation, and that everybody walked away uninjured and everybody was safe. Then moments later, a guy gets stabbed.
I (we) could have prevented this from happening!!!! If we would have "neutralized" these punks and took the knife away, then the other guy would not have been stabbed and we had gotten our revenge! I always thought peace was the best course of action, but did I do the right thing???????
We could have settled the score, and prevented a stabbing, but instead I told everybody to back off and walk away. I feel good that we didn't get hurt, but I also feel horrible that because of my (our) inaction, that someone else got hurt.
Mr. Blauer, what do you think? Did I do the right thing? Should I have helped in neutralizing the punks, or was walking away the best course of action, in this specific incident?
I value your opinion, and anything you can add will definitely help settle my conscience.
(As always, I also welcome any comments from the TCMS members)
First things first.
1. You did the right thing. You trusted your intuition. You used intelliegence.
2. Bullies are cowards, as these guys were. If you all had 'bullied' them to further make a point it might have escalated or not.
3. MAybe the knife wouldv'e come out then. A stab to the leg can be fatal if it hits the femoral artery.
4. You are not clairvoyant. DId you know these jerks were going to attack someone else? NO. If you did, then the comments you worte about guilt would apply. Since you didnt, it's just unfortunate that it happened.
5. Lessons learned? Someone shouldv'e been on the phone with the police immediately. Yes the instinct to run to aid your friends is natural, but there were 9 total. DIdn't anyone have a cell? COuld someone have gotten to a phone?
Other than that, your control of the situation was right on. Violence always leaves an ungly film that takes several 'mental showers' to wash off.
My after-action eval: Thumbs up. Now use the incident to analyze SOP's and strategies/tactics.
Thanks for your response.
The girl that was jumped did call the police. When we all ran out, she stayed in the apartment and made the call. The only problem was that we were ten seconds away, and the police were ten minutes away. By the time the police showed up, the other guy already had been stabbed.
I'm not saying the police didn't show up fast enough, I'm just saying that it all happened pretty fast.
Something I didn't add to the event list of that evening, was later, when the police and ambulance had shown up, two of my friends (of the same group) were at the corner store when the male of the two was challenged by another three males. This was 1/2 hour after all this other shit had ocurred. In fear of the male being beaten (he was still pretty under the weather) the female called the apartment, using her cell, to get us over there NOW.
When my buddy came running out yelling that our friends were being ganged up at the store (he was still dealing with the adrenal dump from before) we took off again. This time the police were backing us up. They came running with us!! By the time we got there, the gang already ran off and my friends were hiding in the store.
I told you this night was one to remember!!
Morale of the story - don't live in the Osborne village of Winnipeg!!!
I don't know how my friends do it.
Mr. Blauer, maybe we could conduct a video documentary on street fights in the village and we all could study these fights. God knows it wouldn't take long to fill up a few tapes. :-)
What are the laws like over there in regards to detaining the bad guys until police arrive??
Owen, we could have detained them had the police told us to. She said that when she called, because no one was injured or hurt the police operator told her to just make a report the next day at a Community Service center. That's when she came out to tell us to let them go.
When she called back to tell them that a male had been stabbed, then they came down. It was a Friday night, and they were very busy responding to more urgent calls. When the call came in that someone was stabbed, the call's priority was upgraded and they responded.
The funny thing is when the police did show up, and we told them what happened, one of the cops suggested to one our friends, that was giving a statement, that we should have taken care of it with street justice. Mr. Blauer, that's why I was unsure of my decision. I thought we did the right thing, but then we have a police officer suggesting we should have settled the score. Less paper work for them I guess. I guess after a while they get fed up with all the BS too.
Anyway, it's over and I'm satisfied with the decision that was made. Thank you everybody and Mr. Blauer for you feedback! Talk to you all soon.
I AM RHINO!
First: I am not Tony, nor have I had hands'-on training with him.Second: I am a lawyer whose area of concentration is criminal law. While I go up against LEO's constantly, I have a great appreciation for the good ones and the amazing job they do under unbelieveable pressure and stress (and that's before I deal with them!).But that's for the good ones.Rhino, the one who told you to use "street justice" gave you some of the worst advice possible. If you had taken matters into your own hands/feet/knees/elbows/pipes/nunchucks, etc., I guaran-damn-tee it that he would be first in line to arrest you for assault, battery, etc., if not homicide! You may use force to defend yourself or another physically from physical force. You may use deadly force only to defend against imminent deadly force. Period. In the U.S. you generally are held to the standard of what the reasonable person would believe was necessary (using the physical v. physical/deadly v. deadly standards/doctrine) under the circumstances of an attack upon you, but when intervening on behalf of a third party you wouldn't have that leeway; you'd have to be actually one hundred percent correct about aiding a victim, rather than aiding and abetting an attacker.Go back and study Tony's reply, Rhino. Unless I totally misread it, he praised your actions, gave you a few suggestions, and in no way suggested you should have played Batman without a license.Which is what that talking-through-his-...well, lets's say "hat"-LEO did. If I appear to be angry, I am; if a civilian acted like that he'd be arrested for incitement to criminal activity....student
REALSTUDENTS reply contains some important thoughts, however before a lot of energy is wasted on this, let's consider that it is unlikley that a cop, in the presence of many people and other officers would have said something to this effect.
Here is the qoute:
"one of the cops suggested to one our friends, that was giving a statement, that we should have taken care of it with street justice"
What is more than likely is that in the confusion, with the adrenaline and the 'broken telephone' of it all that this was relayed wrong [let's assume that any way]
Anyone who understands the law would not have made the statement.
You did what you could and you handled it correctly given all the dynamics.
Thanks Tony, and everybody, for your thoughts and ideas! It's much appreciated. Talk to you all soon.