What are your views on Aikido?

I was wondering what members of this forum's views on aikido are. Other forums seem to have a very negative view of aikido and I thought the judo forum would be the best place to judge it's efficacy. I guess my main questions are:

  1. Is it a fair criticism to say that you never see aikido practioners in judo tournaments?

  2. Is it good only for unsuspecting drunks?

  3. Why do places like the Tokyo Police Academy still incorporate it?

  4. If it is a "functional" style, how long does it take to become proficient?

  5. Has all the mystical mumbo jumbo ruined it's useful aspects or "harder" versions like Yoshinkan Aikido?

  6. What do you say about the judo blackbelts that supposedly switched from judo to aikido?

  7. Did Kano really respect aikido or was he just playing politics?

  1. Is it a fair criticism to say that you never see aikido practioners in judo tournaments?
    YES.

  2. Is it good only for unsuspecting drunks?
    I DONT KNOW, IVE ONLY SEEN JACKASSES BEAT UP ON DRUNKS. MOST AIKIDO PEOPLE ARE ZEN-FREAKS THAT I AM AWARE OF.

  3. Why do places like the Tokyo Police Academy still incorporate it?
    BECUASE OLD SCHOOL AIKIDO HAS SOME REALLY MEAN SHIT IN IT, SOMETHING MODERN DAY AIKIDO LACKS COMPLETELY.

  4. If it is a "functional" style, how long does it take to become proficient?
    WELL, IF YOUVE EVER SEEN IT AND DONE JUDO, YOU'D UNDERSTAND THAT IT TAKES 20 YEARS TO REALLY GET GOOD AT JUDO AND THATS ALREADY LONG ENOUGH.

  5. Has all the mystical mumbo jumbo ruined it's useful aspects or "harder" versions like Yoshinkan Aikido?
    I DONT KNOW WHAT ASPECTS OR NAMES OF THIS OR THAT ARE LEGIT. ALL I KNOW IS THAT THE MYSTICAL BS HAS RUINED A MARTIAL ART THAT WAS ON PAR WITH JJJ WAY BACK WHEN.

  6. What do you say about the judo blackbelts that supposedly switched from judo to aikido?
    WELL, IF THEY EARNED THE BB IN JUDO THEN SO BE IT.

  7. Did Kano really respect aikido or was he just playing politics?
    NOBODY CAN POSSIBLY KNOW THE TRUTH. HE ENCOUNTERED AIKIDO WHEN HE WAS VERY OLD AND SEARCHING FOR THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE IN THEIR TWILIGHT YEARS SEARCH FOR. I AM SURE HE SAW SOMETHING IN THE PHILOSOPHY AND MAYBE A TECHNIQUE OR TWO HE THOUGHT WERE CUTE. BUT, LIKE I SAID, NOBODY CAN EVER REALLY KNOW-- ONLY IDIOTS TRY TO PRETEND LIKE THEY DO.

LOFL @ Geshe Rimpoche Casey Rybak.

I did aikido everyday for 3 years at 6:30 in the morning with a good teacher. From a fighting point of view it has been incredibly hard to break the bad habits it built into my muscle memory (slow steady movements).

Interesting answers Josh - thanks!

I had no idea who Casey Ryback was until I was reading this thread to a friend on the phone (yes, I have no life) and he apparently has watched way too many Steven Seagal movies - lol

I have a confession to make. I dont know how to say this, so I will just come out and say it. I have a black belt in Aikido. I know that I should have told you guys up front, but it is just that sometimes it is hard to say it. After a while, I didnt bring it up because so much time had passed and I guess I thought it didnt matter. I sorry for the not being honest, and I hope we can get passed this.

  1. Not unless it is a fair criticism to level against a boxing, because boxers never enter judo tournaments. Aikido is Aikido. Judo is Judo.

  2. No. A lot of drunks I know would kill most Aikido guys I know.

  3. Aikido has a place as a supplement for those people who are going to have to use control, disarm, and/or evasion techniques at work. It is very good for avoiding lawsuits. Throw a guy, he splits his wig, and sues you. Hit a guy, he loses some teeth, and he sues you. Kick a guy, he breaks a rib, and he sues you. Twist him down softly to the ground and control him and witnesses say that you showed admirable restraint.

  4. Depends on the system, depends on the student. I have lots of funny stories about the red neck aikido school I came from. These guys were used to being in fights all the time, and started to experiment with aikido when they would get in fights with their drunk buddies. Scary guys.

  5. No. The hard styles are usually the posers. Guys who talk about how they cant show you how effective their hard aikido is because they would have to kill you to show you. I know some mild mannered, would never get in a fight, quiet, soft Aikidoka who butt-rape most of those guys. Granted, they are also high ranking judo guys, but they would use some aikido first to see if they could avoid throwing you on your head in O Soto Gari.

  6. I know a lot of guys who started in judo, met aikido guys and started doing that as well. I dont know anyone who has quit judo because aikido open their eyes to the truth and now they know that aikido is much better. Blah blah blah. That is just stories that you hear in aikido schools that want to act tough and say that the system is a true fighting style. A judo guy with the same amount of time training as an aikido guy would dominate him in an altercation.

  7. I don?t know what Kano really thought.

JM

The word of the day is "redneck Aikido" :)

JudoMonk: thanks for offering your opinion to the questions but when you say:
"Not unless it is a fair criticism to level against a boxing, because boxers never enter judo tournaments. Aikido is Aikido. Judo is Judo."

Is this really a fair analogy? Unlike boxing, Aikido is largely a grappling art (yes I know they have strikes as well, so does traditional judo) or at the very least claims to have efficacy in manipulating the body through grappling. Judo tournaments are a fair forum where grappling techniques can be tested and showcased (i.e. wrestling or many "bjj" techniques can be used in Judo). Why wouldn't any judoka in all the years of judo competition incorporate what aikido claims to be able to do (from their many demonstrations)? I'm really not trying to be a dick with this question, but do really EVERY aikido student that reaches some level of proficiency become so pacificistic and egoless that they no one could ever enter a judo competition?

I don't have enough experience to answer your questions, but I'll throw in my two cents. Two of my close friends are aikidoka, one a third(?) degree bb and the other a brown belt. I am a judo white-belt who has dabbled (nothing more) in wrestling and bjj. I totally suck, and I'm not just being modest. When I got together with my friends for some SD training, I was quietly astounded at the level of misinformation they had accepted. Frex, they believed without question that a strike or kick to the groin would immediately put an opponent out, no questions asked. They considered the RNC ineffective because, I mean, gosh, how are you ever going to get behind the guy to sink it in? They thought joint locks were okay and all, but not all that useful for a real SD situation. They totally bought into the McDojo "one-punch-overwhelming-offense" idea. I'm not saying that they were wrong in everything or that they didn't have any useful techniques or abilities; I consider them intelligent men and good friends. But talking with them was reminiscent of talking with my fellow Fred Villari students lo these many years ago.

Fatbudda, I don?t think you are trying to be a dick. But, I also think that you may have a different take on what most aikido dojos practice. It is not a grappling style. The Aikido guys who say that no idea what grappling is. The idea that you can use Aikido at a Zero distance (like judo, bjj, wrestling, sambo) is a false one. Most Aikido has more in common with the trapping styles (like wing chung). However, my former aikido school, whose national organization is run by, Judo guys had no kicks or punches at all. It all depends on what kind of aikido is being practiced. At least there are clinches in boxing. Traditional aikido has nothing like this.

Judo tournaments are not a fair forum to test grappling skills. Look at all the bjj guys who say, that all judo guys do on the ground is Lay and Pray. Or maybe the give me 2.3 more seconds and I would have RNC him to sleep. Or maybe the NoGi spaz who calls judo guys sissy because he is not allowed to use his devastating flying heel hook attacks. Sambo guys complain that their best grips are illegal. Wrestlers complain about having to wear a gi. Judo rules are biased to allow judo to be used.

As far as becoming a pacifists goes, I have an aikido black belt, I fight in judo and bjj tournaments. Aikido does not make you egoless, I know lots of aikido guys who are egomaniacs. If you are asking, why someone who only does aikido has not stepped up and represented aikido, yo! I don?t think Aikido would work in a judo tournament. Techniques like flying waki gatame, koto mawashi and mia otoshi are illegal. The techniques of aikido are based on committed attacks from distance, not grappling. Basically, an aikido student would get manhandled in a judo tournament.

My honest opinion of aikido is that is fun and I learned some things that I use to this day. Some of the principles and movements have helped me use my judo and bjj in different ways. It is a good style to practice if you don?t like to grapple, and you also don?t like to punch or kick. Really good ukemi practice and it gets you used to knowing when somebody is close enough to hit you. Other than that, it is mostly just something to do. It is not a fighting style. In other words, the students of aikido are not fighters. The system is largely an astectic practice. It is not a grappling style. The hardest thing for an aikido student to deal with is someone slowly walking up to them and grabbing them.

JM

While watching the film "Essence of Judo" with Kyuzo Mifune I notice he used some "aikido-like" moves when he sparred.

Yes, I understand that "Aikido-like" and Aikido are two different things. So although Mifune didn't use Aikido per se he did use the same priniciples and concepts.

When he sparred one of the European/American black belt (I don't know if the guy was European or American) he did this nice evasive movement, that I see alot of Aikido guys do, that made the guy twist his legs in awkward way.

my view of aikido? having followed the aikido class at u of m for years, my thoughts are that aikido is a fucking joke for self defense or ring sport.

dont mind me though, Im only a realist.

I feel bad to say this about any martial art, but it is basically worthless.

JudoMonk:
Thanks for responding. What I don't understand is that when you say that aikido is a good style to practice for those who don't like to grapple and those that don't like to punch and kick -what else is there-and that it is not a "fighting sytle" then why is it sold as a martial art?

One thing that bugs me is that it is totally cool if people want to do something for dance (capoeira for example) or excercise (cardio kickboxing) or historical interest (Civil War reinactments) but I'd bet dollars to donuts that all if not the vast majority of people who sign up to do a martial art think that they are learning how to fight or defend themselves and that what they are doing helps them to fight.

I think it would be really cool if all the standing joint locking and redirection stuff of aikido worked - and that is what I am trying to get an opinion on: how much of it at the highest levels works and is functional.

Also can you elaborate a little bit on what you mean that it only works against "committed attacks from a distance"? It seems that if the opponent is committed to attack me and I see him coming a mile away then a variety of martial arts be they full contact karate, tae kwon do, boxing, wing chun, judo, etc. would work in such obvious circumstances. Why the need for something as esoteric and mystical as aikido?

Also I am curious why it is hard for an aikido person to deal with someone grabbing them. I had the misconception that this would be their strength and they would be able to easily deal with this?

When I say that it is good for people who are looking for a practice that can be suited to anyone. The techniques of aikido are mostly about evading an attack, using a technique to break their balance, and then using their off balance to do something rude to them. When I say that aikido is not a fighting style, I am not saying that Aikido is not a valid martial art. What I mean is that Aikido people will not engage, attack or grab the other guy unless they have to. Image if two aikido guys squared off. Nobody would attack. Think about the UFC where one guy thought it was considered a win to make space and escape from the other guy. Shades of Ali vs Anoki.

It is a very fine distinction to make, but for most Aikido people I know there is a difference between defending yourself and doing something that will help you in a fight. Will aikido help you defend yourself? Yes. Will it help you against another trained fighter in a cage? Nope.

How much of Aikido works? Some. If I had to train a group of Aikido students to fight in a Judo tournament, but they would not be disqualified for any Aikido techniques that they practice, I would have a room full of guys throwing Waki Gatame to the ground. Very little of the standard Aikido techniques would work against a trained opponent. However, I have seen lots of guys use aikido horsing around and surprise guys.

Why the need for something as squirrelly as aikido? It requires nothing. No strength, no speed, no mental toughness, no real physical ability. Simply, it is the best choice for someone who has no other options. Long after you can no longer do judo with guys who are stronger than you, you can still rondori in aikido if everybody is just doing aikido. Watch the mifune clips. All of his uke are jumping for him and letting him do his thing. Does that mean he was a fake? No. Does it mean that to show what he knew, he needed people to cooperate? Yes. Aikido is like that.

When I said the hardest thing to defend was a grab, what I meant was a grab like you would grab in grip fighting. Not a balls out running tackle grab, but a calm and deliberate climbing grab that made the aikido student attack. Then aikido breaks down because it was never intended to be an attacking style.

JM

Everyone else had good answers for the other questions, but I wanted
to add something about

  1. What about the judo bbs who switched? Tenryu was a champion sumotori who met Morihei Ueshiba and said that his skill was powerless against Ueshiba.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?
articleID=449&highlight=tenryu

Let's stop and think about that for a second. The guy was a combat
athlete, yet he was powerless against Ueshiba. Tenryu was evidently a
really disagreeable guy when he felt like it and organized a players
walkout of sorts:
http://www.sumofanmag.com/content/Issue_2/Rikishi_of_Old2.htm

What gives? Most of Ueshiba's students sucked and couldn't do what
he did, but still, the old man must have had something.

From the Sumo fan site:
"In 1939 he happened to come across a demonstration by a frail
looking old man who threw aside men coming towards him armed with
a sword. Tenryu suspected that the whole thing must have been staged
and challenged the old man who promptly blew him, a professional
sumotori, away with one hand. This old man was none other than
Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido. "

from the aikidojournal interview with Tenryu before his death:

"I thought that this old man was speaking nonsense and slapped his
hand down as I grabbed it. But the moment I touched him I was
startled. I felt as if I had taken hold of an iron bar. Of course, I knew
very well from my experience in Sumo that it would be useless to
struggle against him. I immediately knew I had been defeated.
However, I couldn't just leave things like that and attempted to twist
his arm up and out. He didn't move an inch. I tried again with both
hands using all my might. But he used my strength against me and I
fell down.

What technique did he use on you then?

It was kokyunage. I didn't have any particular problem with the fall
since we take ukemi in Sumo too. But I was really amazed to know that
such an art existed. That night I visited the lodging house where
Ueshiba Sensei was staying and asked permission to become his
student. He told me to come to his dojo in Ushigome in Tokyo. He said
that three months of practice would be enough for me."

Doesn't sound like he was being a pussy about it. Of course maybe he
was making it all up for the aikido journal interview because the aikido
mafia paid him off =)

there was a better thread on aikido. if i have it saved, i'll refresh it up fatbuddha.

thanks Yosul!

Ueshiba was an incredible martial artist by all accounts. Even though his exploits have obviously been blown out of proportion over the years, he was a classically trained very skilled martial artist.

Ben

"he was a classically trained very skilled martial artist."

I believe this is true.