What does "Enlightenment" mean?

Otherground
21

"Interesting thread Rastus,"

I think so.

"This below is only what I believe, so everything that anyone thinks is to strange for them, please just dismiss it."

I'll ruminate, but not quickly spit out ;)

"I think pretty much everything you yourself listed above."

See? We have many things in common!

"And an enlightened person wont be able to eat animal meat, or in any way consciously hurt another being (humans and animals), physically or mentally."

I have considered this point as well, Fudo. In fact, if you've noticed, I've started a few threads on the concept of animal cruelty and cultivating livestock for the purpose of consumption of their flesh. After reading Alan Singer's essay on this, it has changed the way I view the issue, though I still eat meat currently.

Interesting "food for thought" ;)

"An enlightened person wont be able to hurt his/her own body either, so he/she wont drink alcohol or take any other harmful drugs."

I tend to agree with this, though to what extent becomes an issue. For instance, it can imo slip into a bit of a neurosis - being hyper aware of, for instance, never drinking tea or coffee. But, hey, if that's another's way, more power to 'em. If that's how they keep conscious of their lives, works for me.

I have been lately using this stuff called "Snoo" - it's a snuff from Sweden that the Swedish government has removed from the "cancer causing" list. Long studies showed it having no increased risk for cancer. It's a tobacco product, basically, but it doesn't have all the nasty carcinogens that something like "Copenhagan" does.

"An enlightened being will also understand that 'Everything is good'"

Or perhaps just "everything has its place". I have little use for "good" and "evil", and find those labels distracting and absolute in nature - something I abhore. (You remember, probably when I used to be an absolutist).

"and lastly, I believe that an enligtened person will be "homosexual" (this issue is a bit complicated and sensitive to explain). Especially considering that Jesus was enlightened...."

In what sense? Could you elaborate?

"Btw, from my point of view, those people that Scrap talks about, weren´t fully enlightened. They only had short, tiny glimpses of enlightment. Strong signs though, that they don´t have long time left, until they will be fully enlightened."

Personally, I don't want to judge their state of being, but it would seem strange to be an enlightened womanizer to me. On the other hand, I won't judge the nature of those relationships. It seems gluttonous on the surface, which is not enlightenment to me.

22

martial_shadow,

"acceptance of all things."

I see this too.

"a real emphasis on the virtues of Honor, Duty, Justice, Love, Loyalty, Courage and Harmony. "

Though I certainly see these virtues as being enlightened ways to be, I think there's something more primary that leaves these virtues as the wake of one's passing through life, and that primary thing is a principled and compassionate engagement in the moment.

23

Scrapper,

"Nisargadatta Maharaj was known for "getting pissed" at those that came to his home for his teachings. If you think he, Ramana, and Alan Watts, weren't true sages, I suggest updating your research."

Don't you also think that there are degrees of enlightenment? Can a person be enlightened without being, say, compassionate? And if your answer is "no", how can vitriol be justified? Perhaps if it is a conscious effort at what the alchemists would call "calcination" - breaking someone down with unpleasantries - then I can construe it as enlightened behavior.

e.g. Would an enlightened marine drill seargent be able to do his job without being stern?

"Enlightenment isn't some magical, mystical wonderland. It's the simple realization of what you already are."

But is that a given? I see enlightenment as a type of minimal existence - shedding behaviors and thoughts that are fear based or desire based, assuming that joy exists in the past, future our "on the outside". It's here right now, but we sometimes don't have the eyes to see it. I have growing suspician of any thoughts I have about the here and now.

"There is nothing to attain. Everything is good (because it can't be any other way), and that includes having regular emotions and feelings about certain things. "

Having them, and yielding control to them, however, are important distinctions.

24

bludhall,

"Scrapper meditates under a giant tree of the correct."

He does seem to know a few things, doesn't he?

"Expectatons themselves are not for the enlightened whatever that is."

That's an important point. Expectations distort my perceptions of right now, and disengage me from it's unique reality.

"I would say respect for ALL life and a bottomless well of compassion are the 2 main criteria i see as necessary."

Are anger and womanizing and excessive drinking in concert then with your opinion? If not, how could Nisargadatta Maharaj and Watts be considered enlightened?

25

Cherrypicker - "Would you mind trying to explain this?"

Fudo - I´ll mail you.

Hey! What about the rest of us? I want to read your explanation as well!

26

"Perhaps androginy would describe the concept better."

Attachment to traditional roles and, therefore, enslavement to preconceived notions can't be a part of enlightenment, can it?

I don't see "androginy" as necessary for oneself, but certainly homophobia would be avoided as a non-compassionate, angry, judgemental way-to-be.

27

Aaron,

"Rastus, you might be suprised to know alot of the christians I know are not petty, I am not saying they are perfect."

I'm glad to hear that.

"Satan is a angel of Light, he is more powerful than we can amagine. He can take a half truth or a outright lie and make men think they are being enlightened threw it."

But if Satan requests behavior not consistent with enlightenment, the awakened person would dismiss the requests and thereby deprive him of his tempting power.

"I find enlightenment every time something in my life happens that confurms my faith in the things of my Lord."

I think I know what you mean - that feeling of being on the right track.

"This Life is nothing"

That is such a dangerous thought. For me, this life is everything.

"and we will see this to be true when we die."

We will not "see" anything. Our eyes will be dead. Our mind will cease to exist.

"I love knowing that all the little things we worry about are nothing in the grant work of GOD."

I agree with that.

"I don't worry about much like I used to. I drives some people crazy. But it is a pure freedom, that has been given to me by GOD. "

I think that's awesome, and an enviable position.

28

"See? We have many things in common! "

I know we do. :)

"I have considered this point as well, Fudo. In fact, if you've noticed, I've started a few threads on the concept of animal cruelty and cultivating livestock for the purpose of consumption of their flesh. After reading Alan Singer's essay on this, it has changed the way I view the issue, though I still eat meat currently. "

I think you meant Peter Singer, eventhough I have unfortunatly missed those threads of yours. But it´s a good thing imo to highlight the racism of today; speciesism. I eat meat myself though, so I´m a hypocrite.

The reason I believe that an enlightened person wont be able to eat meat, is because it will create suffering. And an enlightened person understands that every single thing that you "create", will sooner or later get back to you. This goes not only for actions but for thoughts and feelings as well, so if you think hateful thoughts about others or get angry with people,  people will get angry with you and you will eventually be subject to hateful thoughts. This is what I believe anyway.

Eastern traditions, like the one Scrap likes, speaks about that everything is "One" and so forth, which logicaly gives the same result. If everything and everyone is "One", what you do to others, you do to yourself. And similar thoughts can be found troughout the Bible aswell, but expressd abit different.

 

"Interesting "food for thought" ;) "

He

"I tend to agree with this, though to what extent becomes an issue. For instance, it can imo slip into a bit of a neurosis "

I agree with you, I think we should never be fanatical in anything we do. If we feel the need to drink a glass of wine or eat meat every now and then, I think it´s better we do that, until we naturally don´t feel that we want to do those things anylonger. Often it´s the case of doing the the "least bad" of many options.

"I have been lately using this stuff called "Snoo" - it's a snuff from Sweden that the Swedish government has removed from the "cancer causing" list. Long studies showed it having no increased risk for cancer."

LOL, you mean Snus. many of my friends love that stuff, it´s very big in Sweden, and I think it´s way better for your health the cigarettes too.

"Or perhaps just "everything has its place"."

that is another way to put it. The reason I think an enlightened person will think that everything is "good", is because that is Gods perspective of things. A truly enlightened person gets the eyes and mind of God, permanently. Like Jesus.

"I have little use for "good" and "evil", and find those labels distracting and absolute in nature - something I abhore. (You remember, probably when I used to be an absolutist)."

I understand what you mean, those labels can often do more harm then good (sic!),as they are used as tools for moralistic rhetorics.

"Personally, I don't want to judge their state of being, but it would seem strange to be an enlightened womanizer to me. On the other hand, I won't judge the nature of those relationships. It seems gluttonous on the surface, which is not enlightenment to me. "

I see your point and I also share your scepticism. I also don´t think an enlightened person would unfairly judge someone, eventhough, if they speak the truth it can perhaps be harsh sometimes. But since I´m far from being an enlightened person, I can keep judging people  ;-) (eventhough I believe it means I will be subject to the same judgement eventually).

29

"Hey! What about the rest of us? I want to read your explanation as well! "

LOL, ok, ok..


As you probably remember I am quite influenced by the danish mystic and permanently enlightened writer called Martinus. I´ll try to give a quick and quite oversimplified explenation of how he explains this issue: All beings have two "mental" poles that influence pretty much everything we do; one feminine pole and one masculine pole. The pole that dominates your "mind" will decide what kind of persons you´ll be attracted to sexually. A person dominated by their mascline pole, will be attracted to people dominated by their feminine poles and vice versa, giving examples of heterosexuality. Because we are all looking for that balance between the poles, and if we can´t muster up that balance inside of us, we will seek that balance through others.


It´s also often the case that men has been dominated by his masculine pole throughout their lifes. For them, women has been their natural sexual partner, while men in different ways has been the  "enemy". An enlightened person is not only someone who has perfect balance between his/her two poles, but also someone who has removed the concept of "enemy" in their mind and practical life. So the more balanced the person, who is about to get enlightened is, the more he will grow tired of the type of sexual partners he or she has always had. And will, for a short period of time be more attracted to the same sex, his old "enemies". At the same time though, the genital sexualdrive gets weaker and weaker, to finally completly disappear, in favour for another type of (altrusistic) sexuality.


 


I understand all this may sound very far out, so please just dimiss whatever sounds too crazy.


 


If you would like to study this interesting topic in more detail, I´ll recommend Livets Bog V, by Martinus, where he deals with sexual matters.


http://www.thirdtestament.com/litteraturen.html


 


 

30

" think you meant Peter Singer"

I did

"eventhough I have unfortunatly missed those threads of yours."

Tour de forces, every single one. ;)

"But it´s a good thing imo to highlight the racism of today; speciesism."

I agree. The expanding circumference compassion is a sign of spiritual growth, imo; so, naturally, including the suffering of our fellow creatures ought to be seen as a sign of an expanded awareness - a trademark of the enlightened mind.

"I eat meat myself though, so I´m a hypocrite."

So there's room for improvement for both of us.

"This goes not only for actions but for thoughts and feelings as well, so if you think hateful thoughts about others or get angry with people, people will get angry with you and you will eventually be subject to hateful thoughts."

I have learned that on the OG, frankly. I remember I used to just lay into people, and rip 'em apart as best I could. I took pleasure in it - belittling others and trying to make them feel small, inadequate and stupid. What I have reaped from all that effort is alienation and ruining what could have been enriching relationships. I've learned from those mistakes and try to be respectful, friendly and helpful. Musashi is the guy who truly tests my patience and resolve. lol

"I tend to agree with this, though to what extent becomes an issue. For instance, it can imo slip into a bit of a neurosis "

I agree with you, I think we should never be fanatical in anything we do. If we feel the need to drink a glass of wine or eat meat every now and then, I think it´s better we do that, until we naturally don´t feel that we want to do those things anylonger. Often it´s the case of doing the the "least bad" of many options.

"LOL, you mean Snus. many of my friends love that stuff, it´s very big in Sweden, and I think it´s way better for your health the cigarettes too."

It's darn fun to use that stuff! My friend introduced me to it. He imports a bunch of it every month. He's even talked about becoming a distributor for it in the US.

"The reason I think an enlightened person will think that everything is "good", is because that is Gods perspective of things."

I think 'good' exists by comparison - that if EVERYTHING is 'good', then good loses its meaning, its flavor. I prefer 'everything is', and unburden the experience with a label; afterall, a child suffering from terminal cancer I'm not about to call 'good'. It merely is.

"A truly enlightened person gets the eyes and mind of God, permanently. Like Jesus."

The Gnostic Gospels suggest this attainment as well.

"I understand what you mean, those labels can often do more harm then good (sic!),as they are used as tools for moralistic rhetorics."

Yes, and those terms program me to behave in a certain way, instead of immersing myself in the intricacies and subtleties of individual experiences.

"But since I´m far from being an enlightened person, I can keep judging people ;-) (eventhough I believe it means I will be subject to the same judgement eventually)."

I try not to judge people, but merely decide if I want them in my life or not.

31

Aaron,

"the Bible describes are lives as a vapor in the wind."

That it is.

"Also, like a flower in a field quikly weathering away, to never be remebered in that place again.A wave tossed in the Ocean. It's not nothing, but it is real close."

OK. I understand what you mean better.

"Also, you think we turn off like a light when we die."

Exactly as I think.

"Jesus and the Bible have made it clear that we are to face 1 death in this life. And a 2nd death after of the spirit. Hens reborn again in the spirit of the Lord."

I, personally, don't want to invest hope for such things. I want to learn to be content with the one life I'm sure I have.

"Hardware dies, Software lives on. This is Science providing proof of the Word of GOD. "

Well, no. Not really. "Software" to exist required hardware. Software is a configuration of hardware. It is built on a foundation of hardware.

Kill the hardware, kill the software. If you don't believe me, submerge your computer underwater for a week, then try to write a response to this post.

32

"As you probably remember I am quite influenced by the danish mystic and permanently enlightened writer called Martinus."

I'd be interested in learning more about him, though I am reading The Book by Watts right now.

"if we can´t muster up that balance inside of us, we will seek that balance through others...I understand all this may sound very far out, so please just dimiss whatever sounds too crazy."

I understand the premise and think it makes sense. That is definitely too radical for me. I would miss the partnership of a good woman, even if I could take that path. That's certainly a fearless and innovative perspective, however. I can understand your trepidations on posting this, given the nature of the OG and those who post here.

"If you would like to study this interesting topic in more detail, I´ll recommend Livets Bog V, by Martinus, where he deals with sexual matters.

" Thanks for the link. I'll check it out."

33

this is a great thread.

Rastus, in my perception- compassion comes at the end of mastery. Once you have passed through the inner realm and let fall the demonic behaviors sucking on you that we all carry, then you realize that as a person, you have a call of duty, you must up hold justice, you become courageous, etc. When all of these are in place- harmony and compassion become your way of life. What would your arguement be that compassion is first? Granted, this is my perception only, so its not like my arguement is very strong.

MS

34

Compassion, in me, comes when I recognize a person making the same mistake that I used to do - like empathy, but one step ahead.

35

Enlightenment seems to be a bit misunderstood. What needs to be realized is that Enlightenment, Buddhahood, Christ-Cosciousness IS WHAT YOU ALREADY ARE. The "you" (ego) that thinks it needs to attain Enlightenment is a mirage.

The Ego never has and never will do anything, let alone attain Enlightenment.

Think of holding a puppet in your hand and walking around calling it "me" for most of your life. Lets say that one day you become a "religious seeker". For a while, you want the puppet to attain Enlightenment. This comes from the flawed belief that the puppet has done everything in your life.

Maybe, if you're lucky, the realization arises that YOU ARE WHAT IS LOOKING AT THE PUPPET AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN. You already are what "you" are trying to attain.

Now, when this realization arises (and there is nothing that can make it happen any faster than when it happens), you don't suddenly start sitting in the lotus position all the time, chanting, and handing out wise words that make everything ok.

Remember that your personality is still intact. Sure, you see things differently, and yes, you will act in a different manner, but there is no strict rule for how an Enlightened being is supposed to act.

Why?

BECAUSE WE ALREADY ARE THAT and look at how different everyone is. ;)

I went through a pretty intense period in my life where I was meditating for 6 hours a day. Thankfully, the urge to meditate fell away. I realized that "I" wasn't going attain anything, nor did I need to. :)

Great thread,

SCRAP

36

The mystical part is not some weird thing, it is just something not really explainable. You know, as the french say, i don't know. I think enlightened is when you understand that there is black and white, and there is shades of gray, and we don't always know which is which, yet we just accept life, and let love flow.

the rev

I would say I have times of enlightenment, but often I am in the shadows yearning for brightness

37

"Rastus, in my perception- compassion comes at the end of mastery."

This, of course, suggests that without mastery, compassion is not possible. "Mastery" could not mean "master of the outside", because no one is. "Mastery of the inside" would, it seems to me, be akin to recognizing Scrapper's puppet for what it is.

"Once you have passed through the inner realm and let fall the demonic behaviors sucking on you that we all carry, then you realize that as a person, you have a call of duty, you must up hold justice, you become courageous, etc."

Why must I do those things? Duty to whom, to what? According to what rules? I think the only "duty", if one can call it that, is to love - "extending oneself for the spiritual benefit of another", as Peck put it.

"When all of these are in place- harmony and compassion become your way of life."

martial_shadow, I can understand what you're writing and why you're writing that. I just don't want my enlightenment to depend on proper adherence to an arbitrary code. I just want it to be - not because of what I do but because of who I am. Because of that, other things will take their place naturally.

"What would your arguement be that compassion is first?"

No. I don't want to be forced to be compassionate. It's not real compassion then. It's paying a price for a payoff, and becomes "game". Mastery of self must be primary and I think Scrapper's puppet analogy is excellent. I do it, not because I must to be enlightened, but out of a natural consequence of waking up to the essential nature of being - unburdening myself with expectations and the hellishly tangled web of thought with which I plague myself, disengaging myself from the subtle nature of actual events happening now.

"Granted, this is my perception only, so its not like my arguement is very strong."

Well, you are a very bright, well read man, and I respect your opinions.

38

Donna,

"Compassion, in me, comes when I recognize a person making the same mistake that I used to do - like empathy, but one step ahead."

I can see that, but does that limit your compassion? Our own experiences are a drop in the bucket to ALL experience.

39

Scrapper,

Fantastic post. I don't really have any comments on it, but learned alot from it. Thanks for taking the time to post, buddy.

40

reverend John,

"I think enlightened is when you understand that there is black and white, and there is shades of gray, and we don't always know which is which, yet we just accept life, and let love flow."

I like that...and do you think we should give up "knowing".

"I would say I have times of enlightenment, but often I am in the shadows yearning for brightness"

I know what you mean...believe me.