I want to get an idea of how the members of this forum view logic.
What is logic? Is logic universal? Does logic exist objectively outside our minds? Is it sewn into the fabric of the universe? Or is logic just something that we made up? Why use logic?
I believe that logic is the thought processes of God. God thinks logically and being the soverign creator of all existence, existence abides by the laws of God's thinking. We use logic because we are created in the image of God, and thus he made us logical beings as well. Because of the presence of sin in the world, our thought processes have been skewed and that is why we come to have some false (illogical) beliefs.
I want to get an idea of how the members of this forum view logic.
good questions WOH. Altough I have studied some logic, Dogbert is probably the one that has most formal training in the area here. I´ll give some of your questions a shot until he shows up.
"What is logic?"
my 2 cents:
rules of thought, a system of reasoning. How to think in a "straight line" ie properly deduce a conclusion from given premises.
"Is logic universal?"
Some rules seem to be, but others not, so I dunno really. Maybe it´s just a lack of imagination from my side, if I say that you can´t imagine or understand illogical things, like a contradiction for example. Further, female thought sometime seems to follow its own logic that I also haven´t figured out yet, perhaps that´s a hint that it´s not impossible? ;-)
"Does logic exist objectively outside our minds?"
"I believe that logic is the thought processes of God."
"Because of the presence of sin in the world, our thought processes have been skewed and that is why we come to have some false (illogical) beliefs. "
I disagree, but on the other hand is the concept of sin a result of illogical thought imo.
A nice way to think about it:
Logic is the way we remove contradictions in our thinking.
--"Because of the presence of sin in the world, our thought processes have been skewed and that is why we come to have some false (illogical) beliefs."--
Aahh, the old "sin corrupted our thought patterns" saw.
The question becomes, obviously, how can you trust which conclusions you've come to about God and Logic if sin has made your thoughts unreliable?
Our thinking is to follow certain rules if we are to think correctly. Sometimes we make mistakes in thinking. We jump to conclusions; we make unwarranted assumptions; we generalize. There is a subject that catalogues these mistakes, points them out so that we can recognize them in the future, and then explains the rules for avoiding mistakes. That subject is logic.
Logic does not describe what people think about or how they reach conclusions; it describes how they *ought* to think if they wish to reason correctly. It is like arithmetic, for it explains the rules one must follow in order to reach correct conclusions, just as arithmetic explains the rules one must follow to arrive at correct answers.
www.M-W.com has it thusly; Logic is a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning.
It is not an arbitrary tautology, a useful framework among others. Logic is fixed, universal, necessary, and irreplaceable.
Also, you are correct in saying "[...] that logic is the thought processes of God [...]" and in saying that it comes to us as a part of man being made in the image of God.
Logic is God thinking. In fact John say that God is Logic.
"In the beginning was Logic, and Logic was with God, and Logic was God [...] In logic was life and the life was the light of men."
Logos is the Greek word and our English word logic comes from this Greek word logos.
This paraphrase may not only sound strange to devout ears, it may even sound obnoxious and offensive. But the shock only measures the devout person's distance from the language and thought of the New Testament. Why it is offensive to call Christ Logic, when it does not offend to call him a word, is hard to explain. But such is often the case.
"In fact John say that God is Logic. "
Interesting Tom, from which chapter in John is that sentence you paraphrased?
The first chapter of John's Gospel.
Which translation, because I have now checked three different translations of John 1st Chapter, and couldn´t find your sentence or something even close to it?
I think logic is simply an abstract language.
FudoMyoo: The Gosple of John 1:1 in some of the major translations:
NIV (yuck!) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NASB (one of the best) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NLT (very good) In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God.
KJV (some people like it for its style) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
ESV (best) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NKJV (good) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Dogbert: Do you mean by abstract that Logic does not represent or imitate external reality or the objects of nature?
If that is what you mean by abstract that is fine (and I in fact agree for that is why it is often called "formal logic*"); as long as you think it is not an arbitrary tautology or just a useful framework among others and think, instead, that Logic is fixed, universal, necessary, and irreplaceable (albeit abstract).
*Formal Logic: A system that abstracts the form of statements away from their content in order to establish abstract criteria of consistency and validity.
Tom, I still can´t find a single one translation where you can find the word "logic" that you used?? where do you get that from?
Now, according to Tom, "word" = "logic".
He seems like a Heidegger´s disciple.
"If that is what you mean by abstract that is fine (and I in fact agree for that is why it is often called "formal logic*"); as long as you think it is not an arbitrary tautology or just a useful framework among others and think, instead, that Logic is fixed, universal, necessary, and irreplaceable (albeit abstract)."
? There are many logics.
FudoMyoo: 'Logos' is the Greek word that is translated as "Word" in those translations. Our English word 'logic' comes from this Greek word 'logos'.
DonnaTroy: "Now, according to Tom, 'word' = 'logic'"
No, my contention is that the Greek word 'logos' (here translated as the English word 'word') means 'logic'.
So your pejorative equation should be rendered thusly; 'logos' = 'logic'.
The Greek term 'logos' can be translated by forty different English words. Liddell and Scott's great lexicon has more than five columns, each 90 lines long, of its various meanings. But my point is that the word 'word' is hardly ever the correct translation. Liddell and Scott say explicitly that it "rarely means a single word." the Greek word 'rhema' means 'word' not 'logos'.
The reason our Bibles translate 'logos' as 'word' is that Jerome, a monk of the early fifth century, mistranslated it as 'verbum'. Jerome's Vulgate, as it is called, became the official Bible of the Roman Catholic Church, and the texts Jerome used became the mainstay of contemporary Bible versions. The Latin term 'verbum' became 'word' in English. At any rate, 'logos' hardly ever means a single word.
God and logic are one and the same first principle, for John wrote that Logic was God, for 'logos' is better translated as 'the logic', 'the reason', 'the wisdom', 'the message', 'the language'; because Jesus Christ, as the reflection of God, is the reason, the logic, the truth. The truth is God thinking.
For this reason Logic is not subsequent to God. If one should say that logic is dependent on God's thinking, it is dependent only in the sense that it is the characteristic of God's thinking. It is not subsequent temporally, for God is eternal and there was never a time when God existed without thinking logically. One must not suppose that God's will existed as an inert substance before he willed to think (and to think logically at that).
As there is no temporal priority, so also there is no logical or analytical priority. Not only was Logic the beginning, but Logic was God. If this unusual translation of John's Prologue still disturbs someone, he might yet allow that God is his thinking. God is not a passive or potential substratum; he is actuality or activity.
This, therefore, is the philosophical terminology to express the Biblical idea that God is a living God. Hence logic is to be considered as the activity of God's thinking and willing.
And, no, DonnaTroy, I am not an existentialist. I am a Scripturalist.
Dogbert: No, there are, very definitely, not 'many logics' but *ONLY* one. That is why I said that that Logic is fixed, universal, necessary, and irreplaceable. But, some (no one here), unstable in there thinking, have suggested that Logic is just *a* useful framework among others. That is a belief that I categorically deny!
"'Logos' is the Greek word that is translated as "Word" in those translations."
aha, thanks for filling me in Tom. Didn´t know that the OT was originally written in Greek (I thought it was written in hebrew?) and that they used the word "logos".
"Didn´t know that the OT was originally written in Greek (I thought it was written in hebrew?)"
Th OT is not written in Greek, but I think he's talking about the NT, which is in Greek.
aha, now I understand. Thanks marck
FudoMyoo: No, I am quite sure that all of the Gospels are in the NT. The word "Gospel" means "narrative of God," i.e., the life of Christ.
"Basically a bunch of crap. "
I see that atleast that critical thinking-part of your course paid of. ;-)