When was this fulfilled preterist?

Zec 12:1 ¶ The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah [and] against Jerusalem.

Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Zec 12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

Zec 12:5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem [shall be] my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.

Zec 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, [even] in Jerusalem.

Zec 12:7 ¶ The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify [themselves] against Judah.

Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David [shall be] as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Zec 12:10 ¶ And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

Zec 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

Zec 12:13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

Zec 12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

Yeah, that was weak imo.

Starting with 12:9 it states that God will destroy all nations that come against Jerusalem. I think it's a real stretch to interpret this as generally "evil" or as spiritual wickedness, etc. It's nations, governments and also a stretch to make Jerusalem the church.

But, ok, let's for a moment say that this is in fact true. It runs contrary to the remaining context.

Verse 10 speaks specifically of the House of David...and then names other Hebrew tribes.

I cannot fathom someone interpreting this as the church...

hawker: Keep in mind the church was founded by Jews who viewed themselves as keeping the true jewish faith by following Christ.

me: uh...thanks.

you: Your view of the church is colored by 2000 years of Christianity being a predominantly gentile faith.

me: hawker, modalism is distinctly Jewish and was "accused" as such. additionally I have had some exposure to messianic judism. I find it odd, since the "orthodoxy" is clearly hellinized.

you: It was founded by jews who viewed Christ as being the fulfillment of the jewish religion and viewed it as their duty to spread the gospel to the nations. It's kind of strange to think in one sentence it is talking about Jesus and His life and then it abruptly jumps forward a few thousand years to the end of time, then goes back to Jesus' life.

me: why would you find that strange? The bible is replete with such prophecies, speaking about Jesus at times as "lamb" and "weak" and at other times, as the "Lion" of the tribe of Judah reigning victorious.

you: Much of Zechariah is explicitly fulfilled by Christ. Read the book in conjunction with the first couple chapters of Luke.

Me: I'm glad you said "much" because it's quite clear that it's not "all".

you: You are wanting to latch on to individual verses without taking into account the entirety of the book's message. Context is everything. Read with an open mind and try to avoid hypothesis-confirmation. If you are just interested in fortifying your position, nothing will change your mind, but if you approach it truly wanting to learn then you will start to appreciate the richness and depth of the Bible.

you: hawker, I gave you the entire chapter:
Let's look at this again:

Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Zec 12:10 ? And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

Zec 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

Zec 12:13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

Zec 12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

me: are you really trying to tell me that this is about 1) the church or 2) when Jesus was crucified, or 3) about 70 a.d. Read the verses several times.

Contextually it's impossible to relate those to any of the 3 above, but I'm interested in hearing you attempt it ;-)

honestly for me, not alot of this bothers me. The language of the apocalyptic is a sort of genre. Just like in revelation, I dont take them literally. All of ancient jewish writings really said stuff like, Jerusalem will slay all its enemies. The oppressors will die ! The jews will reign over the earth type thing.

your immediate response is but you take jesus olivet discourse literally.. Well yes in the sense that he set a time frame and said, the physical act of destroying the temple will happen, the rest to me is spiritual. Thats kind of the whole point.

There are still problems I have with accepting even partial preterism. It just makes more sense to me than futurism.

but z, you can't just sort of wipe this away as "apocolyptic" (well, I guess you can if you want:-)
but, clearly he's talking about Jews defeating all their enemies and seeing "Him whom they pierced" and the Jews repenting or bemoaning this.

Now, Zech had already preached judgement on Jews. This is amazing because it clearly shows an inspired prophecy that the Jews will be around in the 'last days'. can you imagine people reading this after 70 a.d., or after the diaspora, or during the middle ages, or during the progroms and nazism?

I mean, this is amazing stuff.

again, I think we probably view the OT in a differnt manner. Those who pierced him obviously saw the destruction and judgement. The true new jerusalem continues to increase its reign over he world. we are the temple.

the kingdom of God as jesus explained wasnt what they hoped or thought it to be.

I wont apologize but really, sorry, I see the OT as more of a cultural reflection of the jews and their place in the world relating to yahweh and their hope of throwing off the gentiles and reigning over the world thru the physical power of God.

I need to look more closely at zechariah to make any further comment. As Ive stated, preterism has some holes in it but by and large its is a slam dunk in relation to futurism and zionism.

dirty preterist!

Z,

If you believe that then go to the scripture and let's brake it down. Don't cut and paste anything but the scripture and lets talk about it then.

I noticed nethier you nor Ridgeback ever post a scripture. Are you guys even in The Word on a regular basis. Because it looks like you let the Church do the reading for you.

I don't post scripture because it does no good.  If I gave you the biblical argument for something you would just fight it.  But yes I do believe that the Church should be the source of authority for interpreting scripture.  Otherwise you wind up with 33,000 different interpretations like in Protestantism.  The Church (meaning the Apostles and their followers) wrote the NT and chose what would be in the NT.  You rely on your church just as much anyway.  You didn't become dispensationalist by a pure reading of scripture.  You became disp. by having that interpretation taught to you by the men you respect as authorities like Chuck Missler.  You trust Chuck Missler and your Pastor to teach you the proper interpretation of the Bible.  I trust the Church that has been around for 2000 years to do it. 

"I don't post scripture because it does no good."

You see a student of the Word would never say such a thing.

"But yes I do believe that the Church should be the source of authority for interpreting scripture."

Your missing out on what God want's to tell YOU then

"Otherwise you wind up with 33,000 different interpretations like in Protestantism."

Well you can throw that at me all you want but I say many many true believers are found in there doing great and mighty things for God. Do you want to deny that or will you just say your not in the busniss of saying who is lost and who isn't?

"The Church (meaning the Apostles and their followers) wrote the NT and chose what would be in the NT."

Look at you here saying that the Apostles wrote the NT. Are you crazy man, the NT has been around from the beginning of time. "In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God" But you probley think the Word is something else and not the Bible.

"You rely on your church just as much anyway."

For fellowship I rely on the Church. And that fellowship doesn't depend on what Church you go to. It depends on your Love for Jesus.

"You didn't become dispensationalist by a pure reading of scripture."

You can't tell me how I became anything Ridge. I had a supernatural experiance while reading the Bible in a Paint Store. The Words jumped out of me.....really just out.

"You became disp. by having that interpretation taught to you by the men you respect as authorities like Chuck Missler."

Wrong again Chuck only strengthend my interpretation. The Holy Spirit get all the credit here bro. Something I don't here you talk about much. The Holy Spirit of GOD wrote the Bible ridge and you keep wanting to give some men in your Church the credit. Shaky ground if you ask me,

"You trust Chuck Missler and your Pastor to teach you the proper interpretation of the Bible."

I trust God man....you need to settle down.

"I trust the Church that has been around for 2000 years to do it."

Your Church is only about 1700 years old and mine is 2007 years old so I've got you beat.

Let me ask ridge, zealot and hawker a question...the answer to the promises made to Abraham (concerning the land being restored to Israel) has seemingly been fulfilled by Joshua...yet here we have:

"But the LORD was gracious to them and had compassion on them and turned to them because of His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and would not destroy them or cast them from His presence until now." (2 Kings 13:23 NAS95).

The blessing of Abraham was in full force during the time of the Kings when spirituality waned among the descendants of Jacob.

What was the blessing? It was God's covenant with Israel, apparently still in effect after Joshua conquered caanan.

Also, how about:

"Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths." (Zechariah 14:16 NASV95)

When was this fulfilled? Zechariah was written some what 400 years before the appearance of John the Baptist, crying, "repent, the Kingdom of God is at hand" preparing the way of the Lord. Tell me, between their occupation and their dispertion in 70 a.d., when this was fulfilled?!!? Zechariah writes of end times that have not yet happened (or didn't happen yet) that all the nations who went to war against Jerusalem will go and worship the King, the Lord of Hosts and celebrate THE FEAST OF BOOTHS.

ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME, that this is the church?! C'mon guys...

I have went thru the olivet discourse thoroughly many times verse by verse. It falls on ears preconditioned by dispensational thought. The reason alot of scripture is not qouted is simply because Im assuming we know the scripture. You post a verse and give me an interpretation whether you admit it or not and I do the same. They are coming from opposing viewpoints.

You cannot debate the issue until you understand what it is you are debating. I know both sides. Ive stated that I came kicking and screaming to the views I have now on eschatology. It wrecked many a thought and made me have to admit that much of my worldview was completely corrupted. The point you are in now is simply a point like a TMA school that dissects why mma isnt viable when they allow no one in their school to attempt the techniques.

I almost feel like you are too young in the faith to really be able to break away from what your elders in the faith ie, chuck missler, your pastor and others. It takes a sense of security to venture into the unknown and realize not everyone knows everything.

Z you are not talking to me are you? Did you read:

"But the LORD was gracious to them and had compassion on them and turned to them because of His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and would not destroy them or cast them from His presence until now." (2 Kings 13:23 NAS95).

um I wasnt ignoring you. theres about 4 threads were talking on and I get home late at night. I think those promises were transformed into the new israel. The church.

Wait a minute Z, the promise of the land of Caanan to the descendents of Israel is supposedly fulfilled when Joshua took the land.

Yet here we have:

"But the LORD was gracious to them and had compassion on them and turned to them because of His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and would not destroy them or cast them from His presence until now." (2 Kings 13:23 NAS95).

This was written well after the conquest of Cannan and God does not destroy Israel because of His promise, which included the promise of the physical land of Israel to abraham.

The covenant was STILL IN EFFECT after the supposed fulfillment in Joshua's time!

Additionally:
"Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths." (Zechariah 14:16 NASV95)

You are telling me that the anti Christ (Nero?) is going to conquer Jerusalem (the Church?) and Jesus will vanquish the enenimes of the Church and then all the nations WHO ARE LEFT, will go to Jerusalem (the church?) and celebrate THE FEATS OF BOOTHS?

Ummm...no thanks bro.

By the way, this is a result of my own studying not reading any apologist for or against.