Where would Danaher rank Top Turtle position...

Where does it fit in his hierarchy?

 

It is a great position to strike from. You see mma guys intentionally pass up taking the back so that they can stay in turtle and stay on top. You also see Jiu-jitsu guys rol to turtle to prevent getting there guard passed. Is giving up side control worse than going to Turtle bottom?

 

Discuss!

I cringe every time I see a BJJ person who has top control from turtle give that position up to chase an armbar or choke. People should do like Askren, maintain the position, and punch their opponents' heads in instead.

In grappling I feel pretty solid in bottom turtle.  I have been developing it over the past 2 years or so.  I have options for reversals, escapes, and submissions.  It's a lot easier for me to attack or at least reset to guard from bottom turtle than it is from side control.  It's also easier for me to turn away and go to turtle from bottom side control than it is to do the traditional shrimping and getting your knee in type move that is taught.  

I don't understand why jiujitsu kind of ignores this position, but in wrestling there is a treasure trove of options from this position.  Pretty much anything I've developed from turtle has been from wrestling based moves and they work extremely effectively.  There's a ton more I need to work on from there, but wrestling certainly has the best answers for the turtle game and all of the scrambles and reversals you can create from it.  

Soul Gravy - I cringe every time I see a BJJ person who has top control from turtle give that position up to chase an armbar or choke. People should do like Askren, maintain the position, and punch their opponents' heads in instead.

I assume you mean BJJ person in a mma match.

 

I understand these things vary wildly amongst individuals, but, IMO, it's  not as good a finishing position as most people seem to think it is (in sport BJJ). 

I personally like a more wrestling oriented approach to the position of turning the guy on the bottom  or breaking him down FIRST, then going for a finish. Especially against pure BJJ guys. Attacking a strong Bottom Turtle with a submission isn't always so easy as it seems.

 

 

Saltine American - 
Soul Gravy - I cringe every time I see a BJJ person who has top control from turtle give that position up to chase an armbar or choke. People should do like Askren, maintain the position, and punch their opponents' heads in instead.

I assume you mean BJJ person in a mma match.


I mean any time I see it ever.

Obviously I don't expect someone to start wailing away in the BJJ practice, but the mentality that this is a good position to maintain which then allows me to punch or knee, I feel should be more highly emphasized than it is.

Yeah, it's fun to try to hit an armbar from the back, or work for the choke, but it's not necessarily the best thing to do in an actual fight, which we should always keep in mind when we're training BJJ. I want my BJJ to work in a fight, not in a BJJ match.

We see this all the time in MMA. Guys losing position going for submissions when they should just be maintaining and punching. How many times have we seen Fighter A, from top control, go for the RNC, only to have Fighter B roll and defend. So now Fighter A, who should still be dropping bombs, has Fighter B's back, but he's also lying there on his own back. and Fighter B is defending, and then the round runs out. That's not good BJJ, that's just bad fighting.

I can't speak for Danaher but I know that the front headlock is one of the major key parts of their system (legs, back kimura, front headlock, triangle) and to them the front headlock doesn't have to just be when someone is on all fours in turtle but that's definitely a big part of it.

I don't fight MMA but my own personal game involves a lot of forcing the turtle. So I really like attacking chokes or the back when they the turtle or as people are trying to turtle off my pass. I think there's a lot there to attack.

Whoever said in MMA it's smartest to just go for strikes from there and not try to give up position to go for a back attack or an armbar or something, I totally get that.

With Danaher's main focus being sub-only right now they seem to not worry too much about potentially sacrificing position to get a submission. So I think he's very open minded about front headlock attacks. Most of the DDS guys have a strong front headlock game and most of them have at least a couple of things from there that risk giving up position but they don't seem to sweat it. In fact not only from the front headlock but a big part of their system is "riding" or "chasing" submission holds to the bottom if necesary.

A lot of the best guys at submissions will do training where they lock in a sub tight but not quite tight enough to force a tap and they'll let their partner roll around or try to escape and they'll cling on and get good at riding the sub through various angles to finish. The Danaher guys definitely do that.

robbie380 - 

In grappling I feel pretty solid in bottom turtle.  I have been developing it over the past 2 years or so.  I have options for reversals, escapes, and submissions.  It's a lot easier for me to attack or at least reset to guard from bottom turtle than it is from side control.  It's also easier for me to turn away and go to turtle from bottom side control than it is to do the traditional shrimping and getting your knee in type move that is taught.  

I don't understand why jiujitsu kind of ignores this position, but in wrestling there is a treasure trove of options from this position.  Pretty much anything I've developed from turtle has been from wrestling based moves and they work extremely effectively.  There's a ton more I need to work on from there, but wrestling certainly has the best answers for the turtle game and all of the scrambles and reversals you can create from it.  



Check out Eduardo Telles.  His approach to turtle position is amazing.

deepu -
robbie380 - 

In grappling I feel pretty solid in bottom turtle.  I have been developing it over the past 2 years or so.  I have options for reversals, escapes, and submissions.  It's a lot easier for me to attack or at least reset to guard from bottom turtle than it is from side control.  It's also easier for me to turn away and go to turtle from bottom side control than it is to do the traditional shrimping and getting your knee in type move that is taught.  

I don't understand why jiujitsu kind of ignores this position, but in wrestling there is a treasure trove of options from this position.  Pretty much anything I've developed from turtle has been from wrestling based moves and they work extremely effectively.  There's a ton more I need to work on from there, but wrestling certainly has the best answers for the turtle game and all of the scrambles and reversals you can create from it.  



Check out Eduardo Telles.  His approach to turtle position is amazing.

That was a part of why I made this thread.

 

His approach is amazing for sport but that big part of his game is completly opposite of the way to use jiu-jitsu in a full on fight imo.

 

I like the way that Danaher thinks the position heirarchy is based on effective striking and turtle by that description is at least equal to letting a guy set his hooks and you giving up the back.

 

 

I wonder why the bjj point system only considers a guard pass to turtle an advantage?

Wilders of the Lost Each -

He ranks it better than top half guard, but worse than top side control.

It's in Mastering Jujitsu. His thoughts on it might have changed. 

If anyone here knows him I'd love for them to ask him about it.

 

Mastering Jiu-jitsu was written a while back and yeah there is a pretty good chance that his thoughts have changed.

Wilders of the Lost Each - 

He ranks it better than top half guard, but worse than top side control.

It's in Mastering Jujitsu. His thoughts on it might have changed. 



Good question. My guess is that he would actually prefer attacking the turtle to top side control. Without the gi and without points I think there are more sub options against a turtled opponent than there are from top side control.



Besides subs from back control and leg entanglements, most of the other subs in no-gi sub-only come from the kimura and the front headlock.



Maybe he will read this thread and give us an answer on instagram.

deepu -
robbie380 - 

In grappling I feel pretty solid in bottom turtle.  I have been developing it over the past 2 years or so.  I have options for reversals, escapes, and submissions.  It's a lot easier for me to attack or at least reset to guard from bottom turtle than it is from side control.  It's also easier for me to turn away and go to turtle from bottom side control than it is to do the traditional shrimping and getting your knee in type move that is taught.  

I don't understand why jiujitsu kind of ignores this position, but in wrestling there is a treasure trove of options from this position.  Pretty much anything I've developed from turtle has been from wrestling based moves and they work extremely effectively.  There's a ton more I need to work on from there, but wrestling certainly has the best answers for the turtle game and all of the scrambles and reversals you can create from it.  



Check out Eduardo Telles.  His approach to turtle position is amazing.

Yup I've watched some of his vids before and I like them, but he doesn't have a ton on youtube.  There are a huge amount of wrestling from the bottom videos that are extremely useful for BJJ.  Some of the positions won't perfectly translate to submission grappling, but the ideas can be modified relatively often.  That said you can't be lazy in turtle like we often are in BJJ.  You have to active and move quickly and you don't have to stay on the ground either.  Also, sit outs are one of the major things that are almost ignored in BJJ.  There are so many transitions that I hope I can get a grasp of one day.  

In general the better a position in a real fight the more

points you get in BJJ.  Which is why being in mount is worth more than being in the guard

But so many people have had their faces caved in while in turtle that IMO the bottom turtle is one of the biggest discrepancies between the BJJ reward structure (i.e. points) and what works in an actual fight. 

robbie380 - 

In grappling I feel pretty solid in bottom turtle.  I have been developing it over the past 2 years or so.  I have options for reversals, escapes, and submissions.  It's a lot easier for me to attack or at least reset to guard from bottom turtle than it is from side control.  It's also easier for me to turn away and go to turtle from bottom side control than it is to do the traditional shrimping and getting your knee in type move that is taught.  

I don't understand why jiujitsu kind of ignores this position, but in wrestling there is a treasure trove of options from this position.  Pretty much anything I've developed from turtle has been from wrestling based moves and they work extremely effectively.  There's a ton more I need to work on from there, but wrestling certainly has the best answers for the turtle game and all of the scrambles and reversals you can create from it.  


vids? i like bailing out to turtle too but once i get there my offense is limited to mostly standing up or getting back to half/deep half

Stephan Kesting - 

In general the better a position in a real fight the more

points you get in BJJ.  Which is why being in mount is worth more than being in the guard

But so many people have had their faces caved in while in turtle that IMO the bottom turtle is one of the biggest discrepancies between the BJJ reward structure (i.e. points) and what works in an actual fight. 



Good point.



--Especially considering you DO get "extra" points for popping up to Knee-on-Belly, which is another "good in a real fight" type of position. Yet Top Turtle position is not similarly recognized in BJJ.



 



 

shen -
Stephan Kesting - 

In general the better a position in a real fight the more

points you get in BJJ.  Which is why being in mount is worth more than being in the guard

But so many people have had their faces caved in while in turtle that IMO the bottom turtle is one of the biggest discrepancies between the BJJ reward structure (i.e. points) and what works in an actual fight. 



Good point.



--Especially considering you DO get "extra" points for popping up to Knee-on-Belly, which is another "good in a real fight" type of position. Yet Top Turtle position is not similarly recognized in BJJ.



 



 

Exactly.  You can punch way harder from Neon Belly than from side control, so the rules reflect that with more points