Which ideology has killed most people Nazism or Co

12 million is the highest holocaust death toll I've ever seen (from the Russians I think yeah?) There are plenty of sources that say 6 million is pushing it.

Don't be mad. The commits won with our help and now communist ideals are fairly widely accepted. Phone Post

Socialist programs that exist in the West were directly influenced by communism.

In the introduction, editor Stéphane Courtois states that "...Communist regimes... turned mass crime into a full-blown system of government"[3]. He claims that a death toll totals 94 million[4]. The breakdown of the number of deaths given by Courtois is as follows:

65 million in the People's Republic of China
20 million in the Soviet Union
2 million in Cambodia
2 million in North Korea
1.7 million in Africa
1.5 million in Afghanistan
1 million in the Communist states of Eastern Europe
1 million in Vietnam
150,000 in Latin America (mainly Cuba)
10,000 deaths "resulting from actions of the international Communist movement and Communist parties not in power."[4]

Courtois claims that Communist regimes are responsible for a greater number of deaths than any other political ideal or movement, including Nazism. The statistics of victims includes executions, famine, deaths resulting from deportations, physical confinement, or through forced labor.


and no I wasnt just talking about the Jews. 4 to 6 million Jews. 1 to 2 million Russians, 1 to 2 million poles/yugoslavs, a couple hundred thousand fags and freemasons...

You overstated the holocaust deaths and WAY understated communist deaths. I wonder why. Now simmer the fuck down.

. Phone Post 3.0

andyloveshugs - 


nazi germany and it's not even close.



re: the mao numbers: they blame the famines on mao and stuff like that, which is legitimate. the problem is the republic of china govt that preceded him, that was capitalist and western supported, had bigger famine numbers, and unlike mao's china never definitively ended famines. so if mao's china = communist deaths, then capitalism has a bigger death record than communism. and if you're attributing blame like that then nazism is responsible for 100 million+ deaths for starting ww2.



re: the stalin numbers: the most ardent right wingers say 10 million now. they used to say "10's" of millions, but since the fall of the ussr that has been completely discredited. the soviet archives, which no one disputes, say around 1.5 million died in gulags under stalin. which is crazy, and ridiculous, and immoral. but it's nowhere near what hitler did. also if you just stayed the fuck out of politics you were good, whereas you had to stay the fuck out of politics and be an ethnic german who had no non ethnic german friends you were willing to help avoid death to not be killed by the nazis. 



the usa and ussr engaged in a fierce propaganda campaign against each other, and we live in the part where our govt was officially endorsing untrue propaganda claims as historical fact, and giving near propagandists like conquest official credibility and letting his (now completely discredited) propaganda be accepted as fact and put into our childrens schoolbooks. 



communism sucked, esp chinese and soviet communism that were so active in reshaping society based on a rigid power structure's silly ideologies (vietnamese and cuban communism, basically national liberation front who adopted communism because they were fighting capitalists so adopting capitalism wasn't going to get them anywhere, never had the same kind of power over it's citizens and basically is different enough to constitute an entirely different ideology). but nazism was basically as close to evil as humans have ever gotten. and if we're saying communism is to blame for famines under communist governments, then capitalism is to blame for the deaths in the colonized world when they were controlled by capitalist governments, and nazism is to blame for all of ww2's deaths. 


You can't just count the gulags. Stalin was also responsible for the Holodomor.

LOL @ "billions" of communist caused deaths, the number gets more ridiculous every time I hear it.

First, the fact that nearly all the deaths equated with communism is from famine, that is ridiculous enough. Is all the deaths from famine and natural disasters in capitalist countries counted as deaths due to capitalism?

The numbers themselves are massively overstated, they come to the conclusion that if the rate of population growth changes during the famine, then this counts as a death. If we did this during the great depression in America, you would get a total of something like 8 million deaths if I remember correctly. There were famines, many people died, this I am not debating. Stalin was a murderous cunt and I certainly don't consider him a communist, but the numbers being thrown about are absolutely absurd. Phone Post

Large scale communism is a terrible idea. Id argue systematic genocide is a worse thing. As mentioned Stalin and Mao didn't kill as many directly like Hitler. It's kinda difficult to compare as the communist happened because of bad policys, not outright murder Phone Post 3.0

"I remember a funny story about Nikita Khrushchev, when he became premiere of the USSR, he made a speech about how they were now past the horrors of Stalin's crimes.

Someone in the crowd yelled that Khrushchev had been there the whole time for Stalin's crimes and did nothing to stop them.

Khrushchev looked out into the crowd and said, "Who said that?"

He got nothing but silence.

Khrushchev smiled and said, "Now you understand why I didn't say anything.""

Did Khrushchev really say that or it's a urban legend? It'd be great if true.

Nazis didn't kill as much, but they sure INTENDED to. Had they won the war if would have been a lot worse. I guess the main difference with them is that they planned to exterminate hole populations. Jews, gypsies, and tons of Slavic folks. By famine, attrition, brutal slavery, extermination camps. They have no equal. They just lacked time and victory to put their mad schemes in place.

And that's what's hard to understand for so many of the communist regimes. They killed millions, but didn't really set out to do so, except maybe Pol Pot. BTW what communist regime was NOT a murderous one? Cuba? Yugoslavia? Now I know they jailed political opponents and killed some, but not 1000s after 1000s like all the other ones.

^What capitalist country is not a murderous one? Phone Post

thirdleg - Communism, but only because organized religion lost its sway before the industrial era.

No doubt a mechanized Catholic Church would have a death toll in the hundreds of millions.


We're very fortunate all modern catholic nations are pretty fucking lazy and backward - Poles, Lithuanians, Mexicans, Brazilians, etc.

@andy

Haven't read thru the thread and I'm kind of drunk now so i wont until morning.

Just wanted to point out your comment about " if you stayed out of politics you where fine" during ww2 Russia.

So as long as you did not vote for the wrong party , participated in demonstrations , talked to the "wrong" people etc etc you where fine...

IMO you should be allowed to support any ideology whit out fear of prosecution , its when you act according to your beliefs ( in a non democratic way ) you should be punished , if breaking the laws. There should never be a reason to live in fear of voicing your opinion how twisted it might be .

And Vhat if you vote for kkk or some other extremist ?

Use common fucking sense.

And i gave my daily mud vote up for enlightening me , if everyone agrees in everything progress is unnecessary.

Peace. Phone Post 3.0

You guys may find these interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll

andyloveshugs -


nazi germany and it's not even close.



re: the mao numbers: they blame the famines on mao and stuff like that, which is legitimate. the problem is the republic of china govt that preceded him, that was capitalist and western supported, had bigger famine numbers, and unlike mao's china never definitively ended famines. so if mao's china = communist deaths, then capitalism has a bigger death record than communism. and if you're attributing blame like that then nazism is responsible for 100 million+ deaths for starting ww2.



re: the stalin numbers: the most ardent right wingers say 10 million now. they used to say "10's" of millions, but since the fall of the ussr that has been completely discredited. the soviet archives, which no one disputes, say around 1.5 million died in gulags under stalin. which is crazy, and ridiculous, and immoral. but it's nowhere near what hitler did. also if you just stayed the fuck out of politics you were good, whereas you had to stay the fuck out of politics and be an ethnic german who had no non ethnic german friends you were willing to help avoid death to not be killed by the nazis. 



the usa and ussr engaged in a fierce propaganda campaign against each other, and we live in the part where our govt was officially endorsing untrue propaganda claims as historical fact, and giving near propagandists like conquest official credibility and letting his (now completely discredited) propaganda be accepted as fact and put into our childrens schoolbooks. 



communism sucked, esp chinese and soviet communism that were so active in reshaping society based on a rigid power structure's silly ideologies (vietnamese and cuban communism, basically national liberation front who adopted communism because they were fighting capitalists so adopting capitalism wasn't going to get them anywhere, never had the same kind of power over it's citizens and basically is different enough to constitute an entirely different ideology). but nazism was basically as close to evil as humans have ever gotten. and if we're saying communism is to blame for famines under communist governments, then capitalism is to blame for the deaths in the colonized world when they were controlled by capitalist governments, and nazism is to blame for all of ww2's deaths. 

Quoting this as a response andy.

"and ridiculous, and immoral. but it's nowhere near what hitler did. also if you just stayed the fuck out of politics you were good"

I commented YOUR words. Phone Post 3.0

Here, this may help, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Calculating_the_number_of_victims

andyloveshugs. Too bad andy doesn't also love books, which he could read and then use to formulate an argument that wasn't factually incorrect.

Even if he did read books he would just find ones that conveniently validate his argument and completely ignore anything contrary. He's already shown as much. Phone Post

Ham and Egger - Even if he did read books he would just find ones that conveniently validate his argument and completely ignore anything contrary. He's already shown as much. Phone Post
Pot kettle Phone Post

Most of the deaths under communism were due to the capitalist nations attempts to get rid of it.

Physical attacks and economic sanctions.

zebedee - 
Ham and Egger - Even if he did read books he would just find ones that conveniently validate his argument and completely ignore anything contrary. He's already shown as much. Phone Post
Pot kettle Phone Post

Pol Pot Kettle, imo

Kneeblock - 
crossfire - Which ideology has killed most people Nazism or Communism.

Which is worse in your opinion ?

For me it has to be nazism based on the ideology but communism doesn't work and has killed more people so they're both worthless and evil IMO. Phone Post 3.0


Strictly speaking, Nazism isn't an ideology as much as an irrational, reactionary counter-ideology. 



The Communism we saw in the 20th Century was more Authoritarian state socialism than the true ideology of communism. In many ways it resembled Nazism more than Marxism certainly.



So I think the answer to your question is state based authoritarian ideologies kill a lot of people always.


KB is pretty much owning the thread. Interested in your point about ideologies vs. authoritarianism, not sure I agree. Certain governance is an expression of ideology as much as a coup is?

I think some people on this thread should read 'Koba the Dread' by Martin Amis. It's a pretty condensed but devastating account of Stalinism