The very fact that the Japanese called the hold the "kimura" should be a tip off as to what's what. Do you think for one second that Kimura invented the hold? Of course not. He popularized it amoungst judo/jiu jitsu players - but where did he get it from?
And if you want to make the argument that he simply took an already-existing judo/jiu jitsu hold and made it big - how could that be?
The hold is too good for that to have happened.
Others long before him within Japan would have recognized the efficiency in the hold and made it "popular" before he did.
And i suspect the same is true for the "Americana" armlock. (The top wristlock in cacc).
And we don't even have to mention a number of leg locks/toeholds, now do we?
BUT on the other side of the coin, there's what the catch wrestlers used to call the "Japanese arm bar"...and of course the same for the "kneebar" - both jiu jitsu in origin.
Catch wrestling is wrestling with submissions, with the big caveat that those "submissions" are also based upon the presumption of pins. IE a lot of the movements induce pain to turn the person over so they can be pinned but of course in modern MMA, there is no "pinning"
To say catch us useless is to say wrestling is useless, which of course no one really believes. But, most likely, this was just a troll thread anyway
Ah, I was thinking it was about time for another one of these threads. Good times, good times.
IN STRANGLER LEWIS' FIGHTING BOOK,
WRESTLING -- JU-JITSU ESPECIALLY --- IS THE NO. 1 WEAPON
by Bob Latshaw
Detroit Free Press, March 15, 1943
Robert Frederick Lewis (sic) is a very proud fellow these days. He is the only sports celebrity who has ever had a full page devoted to his exploits in the Encyclopedia Brittanica.
Robert Frederick, if you don't know, is better known as Ed (Strangler) Lewis, and he devotes his time to the gentle art of wrestling. In fact he has devoted 35 of his 51 years to the sport under that "Strangler" moniker.
During that thirty-five-year period Lewis has taken part in more than 6,000 bouts in nearly every country in the world. He speaks glibly of Egypt, Japan, India, England and other foreign countries. But his big interest at the present time is telling the public of the United States about the benefits which can be derived from wrestling.
Although he's in town for a return match with Orville Brown at the Arena Gardens Monday night, you would never know it from his conversation. Lewis will give a demonstration of the Judo or Commando type wrestling before the bout and his only wish is that all men and boys could have a chance to learn the fundamentals of the wrestling game.
"Wrestling is the only natural sport," Lewis points out. "Whenever one gets into a fight the natural thing is to seek to grapple with the opponent."
During recent months the Strangler has been giving instructions at various Army and Marine camps in the Judo method of combat. His claim as an expert in the Ju-Jitsu field is backed up with experience against that type of fighter during several trips to Japan.
"The only way to beat a Jap using Ju-Jitsu is to know the fundamentals of the holds," Lewis pointed out. "there has been much said about the good old American wrestler being able to beat a Jap anytime -- that's just a lot of hooey.
"I've seen little 135-pound Japs throw husky 225-pound Yanks," Lewis continued, "but those same 225- pounders would have been unbeatable if they knew the basic Ju-Jitsu holds and used their additional weight."
Drawing on his knowledge of wrestling picked up in his many years of travel, the Strangler reeled off tales of hand-to-hand combat that would convince even the most skeptical that wrestling is the original "art of self defense." He pointed out that in the Cairo (Egypt) Museum there is evidence that catch-as-catch-can style wrestling has been in existence since 4,200 B.C., although most people think that it started here in America some 150 years ago.
He is thoroughly convinced that wrestling is a good body building sport. His own case is his best proof. A few months ago Lewis weighed 350 pounds. Doctors feared that his life was endangered when his blood pressure reached 210, but getting back into shape through the use of his wrestling, he dropped 90 pounds and his blood pressure returned to normal.
At the moment he is trying to use wrestling to build a Marine back into fighting shape. Thor Morgan, a veteran of the Pacific battles, has been discharged from the service because of shell shock. But Lewis feels that Morgan will be ready for active duty in a few months after working out regularly on the mat with him.
Without trying to boast, Lewis said that he would take on the three top-flight heavyweights and guarantee to dispose of them in less than two minutes each. "I'll do it in private, public or any manner any promoter would wish it -- and remember I'm an old man," Lewis concluded.
For a fifty-one-year-old youngster, the Strangler is still quite a guy.
Already In Use - *Obviously since all the Catch guys are winning ADCC every year...
Catch isn't a hair on the nutsack of Bjj... Catch guys go back to your hole.*
Yeah, and look how dominant the Gracies were over Catch Wrestler, Sakuraba. Oh, and we all know how BJJ BB, Frank Mir defeated Lesnar in their much anticipated rematch.
I think your talking about mma right? I was talking about catch wrestling vs bjj. Regardless your calling Lesnar a catch wrestler?? That's a joke right?
Earle Liederman called it back in the 1920s, catch-as-catch-can and jiujitsu together are better than either apart. Take a deep breath, summon your powers of reason, and admit that he was right even way back then.
Here's the bottom line about all of this: Whether you believe that cacc has more fight efficiency or BJJ does - it should be obvious that each has something to offer to any competitive fighter/grappler. This is the age of crosstraining - and with good reason: it makes you a better fighter.
You've come a long way Victor.
Is there a BJJ alive who doesn't think wrestling has something to offer? And if you take off the gi, what do you work? Especially if you allow leg locks and neck cranks? Just like all the Japanese guys when they got into events without a pin suddenly "found" the guard
"The very fact that the Japanese called the hold the "kimura" should be a tip off as to what's what. "
The Japanese dont call that lock a "Kimura" the Gracies started that, the Japanese know it as gyaku ude-garami
SKARHEAD - Whatever. Good luck finding quality places in this country to traain CACC.
Find a good GJJ/BJJ school and go from there.
That was my initial thought. Those who really know and teach cacc are few and far between.
Bobby Lupo -cuzz63 - "The very fact that the Japanese called the hold the "kimura" should be a tip off as to what's what. "
The Japanese dont call that lock a "Kimura" the Gracies started that, the Japanese know it as gyaku ude-garami
I hear that in Brazil they call Brazillian jiu Jitsu: Jiu Jitsu.
Anyway, I believe that Fit Finlay is a legit catch guy. I think his father teaches wrestling in Ireland and Steve Regal (Williams) has a well documented past as a carnie wrestler and endorser of that Matt Furey Chimpanzee Workout. WWE guys are quick to point out that Regal and Finlay are legit tough guys.
thanks bobby... my original thoughts were correct as i suspected regal and finley to be REAL legit sub guys in WWE
cuzz63 - "The very fact that the Japanese called the hold the "kimura" should be a tip off as to what's what. "
The Japanese dont call that lock a "Kimura" the Gracies started that, the Japanese know it as gyaku ude-garami
that actually sounds right as well...it was the gracies that dubbed that dbl wristlock "kimura"... i am certain if the guys name was Jack Swanson they wouldve likely called it the "swanson" :)
GReat thread and pure gold through n through
I did a Tony C seminar and some of the stuff was interesting and some of it would get you beaten to a pulp or subbed. I would say stick with BJJ and/or Judo.
Victor Parlati - The very fact that the Japanese called the hold the "kimura" should be a tip off as to what's what. Do you think for one second that Kimura invented the hold? Of course not. He popularized it amoungst judo/jiu jitsu players - but where did he get it from?
And if you want to make the argument that he simply took an already-existing judo/jiu jitsu hold and made it big - how could that be?
The hold is too good for that to have happened.
Others long before him within Japan would have recognized the efficiency in the hold and made it "popular" before he did.
And i suspect the same is true for the "Americana" armlock. (The top wristlock in cacc).
And we don't even have to mention a number of leg locks/toeholds, now do we?
BUT on the other side of the coin, there's what the catch wrestlers used to call the "Japanese arm bar"...and of course the same for the "kneebar" - both jiu jitsu in origin.
Be careful Victor,don't take it to far,if you get to far out you might not be able to get back
Rali-That has not been my experience.
cuzz63 - The Japanese dont call that lock a "Kimura" the Gracies started that, the Japanese know it as gyaku ude-garami
Yep.
The Japanese also don't use the term "Americana" either. That's another Brazilian creation.
Ummm, that Japanese speak Japanese. Maybe that is why.
Rali - I did a Tony C seminar and some of the stuff was interesting and some of it would get you beaten to a pulp or subbed. I would say stick with BJJ and/or Judo.
either one could be exposed and be suspect if one aspect isnt covered on either system catch/sambo/judo/bjj/wrestling/
the fight dictates your approach defensively and offensively. your mentally from the get go is lacking to fulfill an area in catch is to be neglected for bjj/judo because of a seminar with Tony C?
not beating u up bro but dont let that be a decision maker to OUST catch due tothat reason..there are other authorities for catch that can fill in whatever area was deemed "worthless" by Tony C's approach. i dontknow what it was that the seminar made you feel that way but dont limit your self...try looking at other sources for catch (alot on this thread alone). I am sure there are just as many areas in BJJ/judo that would get you killed just as on par in the same category.
If anything like bruce lee says..."take what works and leave out the rest".. however the "rest " doesnt necessarily mean it wont work for someone else.