Who's NOT a JKD fighter today?

Underground
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Ok, yeah, I know, this thread has been done..too bad, moving on....

So, I keep hearing this nasty rumor that Jeet Kune Do sucks ass, and that a JKD man would get smashed in MMA.  Hhmmm, well, that would depend on what "JKD" you were talking about.  If you're talking about the rediculous articles on JKD posted in most magazines where they show 2 idiots doing trapping hands in what they think is a street fight, yeah, that's get your arse kicked.  If you mean the folks who still believe in the mystical "One In Punch", oh yeah, ass kicked.  And those JKD goofballs who parctise Kali flowing techniques all day then when they spar with a stick, it looks like 2 retards with a stick fighting over a "pretty birdy", then of course, that sucks.

 But when little Bruce popped up with JKD(via SunTsu Art Of War, Wing Chun, Boxing, etc...), he first and foremost said it wasn't a style, yet it was about taking what was usefull and disgarding the rest.  Muay Thai has crap in it that would get you smashed in a MMA fight, yet MT is one of the most effective methods used in the ring.  Same said for BJJ, wrestling, boxing, and every other well known fighting art in the world.  Todays fighters have become great because they knowingly or un, took on the concept of JKD, cross trained, and learned what worked and what doesn't.

If todays MMA fighting art could be named, it would have to be called JKD because it is what Bruce always talked about happening with the martial arts. He also maintained that JKD was NOT a style. Rather one's personal expression of him/herself. He was the FIRST to advocate cross training in the arts, leaving behind "katas", and put more enphasis on things like cardio, weight training, and sparring; again, the FIRST to do so. So, even though we see different inturpretations (ie Randy Coture, Vanderlei, Tito) we still see true JKD shining through because each one of those fighters, although are stronger in a certain aspect of the martial arts, have worked on becoming more proficient in all aspects of empty hand combat.

So, keep denying it, keep beashing it, but in order to become truly succesful at MMA fighting, you're gonna have to give in to the JKD logic. Now my little trolls, go to work!

Spidey

PS This is NOT a thread saying how good or bad Bruce was as a fighter, or whether or not he'd kick Yves Edwards ass if he were alive today. It's commenting on what his concept of JKD was to be about. Sorry to take awy that bit of candy for my trolls out there.

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Sorry that I can't use sign on here for you blind folks Hammer. Here, put your hand against the screen...click..clickclick..clickety clack click. You feel that? Thats me calling you a dweeble.

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ttt

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"He was the FIRST to advocate cross training in the arts, leaving behind "katas", and put more enphasis on things like cardio, weight training, and sparring..."

this is inaccutate but largely taken as truth by most JKD/Bruce Lee afficionados. while it is true, he was not the first. the idea of cross training and mixed martial arts have been around for centuries (reference Greek Pankration) and even up to Pre-Marquis of Queensbury bareknuckle boxing, which included a lot of what in the modern sport of MMA would be allowed (clinching, kneeing, holding and hitting, hitting a downed opponent) and a lot that wouldn't be allowed (hair grabbing and gouging)

as for the modern era of martial arts training. Jigoro Kano often times is overlooked for the exact same contributions to functional training that BL is always given credit for. and his influences ironically enough, lead us right back to the Gracies, modern BJJ and MMA.

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The thing that I can't understand, Spidey, is what you want to achieve by trying to convince everyone here they are JKD fighters and shouldn't bash it. I know (and I'm sure most of the other members who post here know) of Bruce Lee's true intentions of the "way of the intercepting fist", and "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do" is a great read...but over time, even something as revolutionary and complete as JKD becomes misinterpreted and commercialized. It seems like a lot of "JKD Schools" simply use the fact that Bruce Lee invented it as their advertising pitch and further pollute people's opinions of it.

To say that all MMA fighters are basically JKD fighters is kinda like saying all MMA fighters are basically professional food critics...because we ALL eat right?
I'm not trying to troll and I would never post something I didn't think had a point, so please don't think I'm just trying to create an argument.

Thank you for reading my post.

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Sorry, forgot about ancient Greece.  Of course, they were the first to come up with a condom made from a sheep intestine too(wonder how they found out a sheeps ass was air tight enough to stop sperm from escaping?)

Anyway, I'm not a Bruce Lee whatever that word is you used, I'm just a realist. The Greeks never crossed trained in anything other than sheep to goat humping. When the first Pancrase matches were going on, they imported different fighters of different styles from, yep, DIFFERENT places. It was supposed to be a contest of which style was the best, and never has it been documented that any of the early warriors were capable of fighting in all 4 ranges of combat, never. All those folks you mentioned were overlooked because they couldn't make it work, Bruce did, and he didn't keep it a secret like some of the aforementioned did. The Gracies can't be given such credit because all along they claimed that BJJ was the be all get all of martial arts. They NEVER talked about crosstraining till some of their top boys started getting smashed. hell, even now, you can walk into a lot of Gracie studios and find that they won't teach any stand up because it's "not as effective" as BJJ. So, I'm gonna have to stand by my statements.

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I always thought that if Bruce were not to have died prematurely, he would have eventually been the catalyst for mma as we know it. He ofen talked about pitting style against style and I think he would have eventually ended up in a mma system, whatever it would have been called. So indirectly Spidey, you are partially correct. The JKD was just a stage that Bruce was practising at the time of his death. Eventually things would have evolved.

rvboy

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ttt

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Actually Eric, I and a surprising amount of MMA-ers out there eat like crap.They drink, get high, all that crap. We know not to, but that don't stop us;-) But, point, I dunno, I work here in the ER late nights, so I guess I was bored and wanted to see what other folks' opinions were on this. I fully admit that most JKD schools are crap. But true JKD isn't found in those places, nope, it's found in YOU. Man, now I sound like an after school special. Ok, some guy just came in with a gerbal in his....you know. Gotta go.

Spidey

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Haha...actually I should've put an extra comma in that post, it would have read "we ALL eat, right?"
Have fun with the....gerbals. =)

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" All those folks you mentioned were overlooked because they couldn't make it work, Bruce did ..."

what is the proof of that statement? the evidence or otherwise concrete examples of this is where? those 'other folks' tested their arts in daily practice, sparring, sport competition, vale tudo competition, and yes ... (dare i say it) streetfights.

"They NEVER talked about crosstraining till some of their top boys started getting smashed"

the evolution of Jiu-Jitsu in Brazil by the Gracies involved not only the style taught to them by the Japanese Jiu-jitsu champ but also their own experiences in wresting, sambo, judo, and applications in true Vale Tudo and steet defense. that hybrid of styles and open challenge evironment was more conducive to cross training and realistic fighting.

"you can walk into a lot of Gracie studios and find that they won't teach any stand up because it's "not as effective" as BJJ"

a stand up art that has no answer for grappling other than grappling itself ... is basically useless. your stand up striking skills are only as good as your ability to stay on your feet. without functional training in wrestling, clinch, and takedowns (grappling) you will end up on the ground ... and its an all too familiar tale from there.

while conceptually BL did express similar views, he was never able to actualize it with his limited knowledge and lifespan. besides, in this country, the bar was not set that high in terms of martial arts. the only striking art available was Karate and that was being trained with no contact. by the end of his lifetime, he was beginning to have his student spar through all ranges with minimum rules and full contact. cool. great. that was late 60's early 70's ... the Gracies had been actually fighting that way against all comers using the most effective strategy DOCUMENTED and SEEN in real matches since the 30's. those are not third person accts of this challenge match on a movie set or that fight on a Hong Kong rooftop either ...

if the social climate of the USA would have allowed such old school NHB style matches that routinely went on in Brazil, then a great many of those who only trained in striking would have seen the limits of their art and the reality that when 2 people are aggressively attacking eachother ... they will invariably clinch and begin to wrestle (whether by accident or design) otherwise the value of such arts like thai boxing, wrestling, judo, and bjj would have emerged sooner. but it took the Gracies to ACTUALIZE that in thie country with the UFC and the Gracie Challenge. give credit where credit is do.

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"Bruce Lee was first, yada yada yada.

Try Googling the following people.

Fiore dei Liberi. early 15th Century
Pierre Vigny. 19th Century
E.W. Barton-Wright. 19th Century
William Fairbairn. circa 1930

Fiore beats Bruce Lee on the whole cross training thing by a few hundred years or so.......and is documented as doing so. So do the other chaps I listed.

Bruce came on the scene during a time where Asian mysticism and "tradition" were a dominant force. Bruce didn't invent anything, he just went against the grain.
Cheers,
Stu.

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As much as I respect Bruce, he was far from the first cross-trainer. Stu brings up some great examples.

However, he was by a huge margin the biggest influence on the popularity of Asian fighting arts in Western culture. His on-screen charisma put Kung Fu in the limelight, and those interested enough to learn more about Bruce's POV found that he was as much MA philosopher as actor.

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I know a few JKD guys who love to do mma.

What does that mean?

I dunno but they kick ass.

=)

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Wow! This is one interesting thread! I didn't know any of that about Bruce Lee.

Yellaboy, were you an English major? That read like a magazine article.

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most of his sayings (especially from the Tao) and philosophy are just him para-phrasing the works of Krishnamurti and Alan Watts. he just words it differently from the MA perspective. it was cool of him to look in that direction for whatever guidance he was looking for but for people to credit him with being a great philosopher is a bit of a stretch for me

this was even true of the diagrams he sketched for himself. like all the boxing combos, slips and counter found in TOJKD is taken directly from jack demsey's "Championship Boxing" book which Lee studied. These were Lee's personal notes, based on the works of others. whatever their purpose was ... i don't think they were never meant to be published and viewed like a bible in the MA community.

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I know a few JKD guys in CT plus myself would be more than happy to step up to the plate.If any JKD haters wanna scrap.

To make it true to the art I'll find a 5 storie building with a flat roof.;0)

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just don't poke a hole through my soda can with the deadly bui-jee, and then follow up with the Nao Tek that is seen before it is felt ... that scenario would just plain suck!!!

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    (Whew) got that gerbal outta there.  Now, ok, so you say JKD isn't the only art that advocates cross training...well, name on.  Name ONE BJJ, Muay Thai, or any other martial school that you could sign up for, and in that ONE class learn how to effectively fight in all 4 ranges of combat.  Yeah, in order to learn anything close, you gotts go to one of those schools called Hybred this, or Hammer House that, because they couldn't tell you what they hell the art is they're teaching you.  In other words, only a school claiming to teach NHB could come close to teaching you all ranges in one sitting.  

 Any other school you go to may have an hour of BJJ, or an hour of wrestling, but you have to sign up for a bunch of different classes, add it all up, and if you're lucky, they're smart enough to have a sparring session at least 3 times a week which they won't call BBJ sparring or whatever, because BBJ wouldn't offer it all.  JKD, a GOOD JKD school will offer this and more.  They'd introduce one to all aspects of fighting, the thinking portion, as well as the physical, teach you to use your strenghts more effectively will "fixing" your flaws such as lack of ground/ stand-up.  And THEN a good JKD place would offer sparring nearly daily where you could use what you'd just been taught.

 With all that said, a lot of schools not claiming JKD does that, but again, it won't be your grappling or boxing places, it's gonna be Lion's Den, Team Quest, or something of the like that claim some system of "hybred" fighting...which again, spells JKD to me.  

And in answer to Yallaboys queery, "what type of person likes JKD"...me.  And while I may not be in the UFC, JKD did help me survive my 7yrs in max, med, and even min security prisons from the age of 17 to 24.  Not to mention, that with just the books I read on JKD while I was in, I got out, had my first fight in '99', and from then till now, I have a not too bad MMA record of 36-12-1, and a MT record of 6-1.  I've never went to a BJJ gym for instruction, nor MT, or any of those types.  I've mostly watched at "hybred" gyms, and when I saw something i lifed, I referred back to my mental JKD roladex, and discovered how what I saw would best work for me.  In cage fighting/MMA, I've fought some good guys, some ok, about 1 or 2 not so good, and while I was inside, given the fact that I looked REALLY young but had a distaste for cock, I wound up fighting a bunch of fucking pervs off my ass and all of them were scarier than anyone I've ever faced in the cage or ring, EVER.  Now, if I had the record of Tank Abbott or He-Man Gipson,and tryed using my JKD while in prison and just got butt raped for my efforts, yeah, I might just rethink my selection in concepts.  But, I'm still an ass virgin, and I have a better record than a hell of a lot of guys out there that've been fighting as long as I have.

So, lot's of folks have different opinions about JKD, and far be it from me to convert you lost souls, but for me, regardless of what "hybred" gym I may watch or even think about training at, in the end, it'll be the concepts of JKD that I go back to to help me through whatever situation I'm in.  Well, that and the bible of course;-)

Spidey

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You poor, poor heathen, I try to save souls like you from hell all the time. Oh well, more Angelic poontang for me!! And no, i meant "HYBRED". Thats exactly the way a lot of brain dead fighters spell it on their school plaques, so thanks genius, but I don't need you to correct my broken English....quoted from Ice Cube '92', his racist years.

Spidey Doggy Dogg