--"even though our church believes in the power of healing (from God) we do not dismiss modern medicine..."
Excellent! Glad to hear it.
--"...but look at the knowledge and the power of modern medicine as a gift from God.- -
Whereas I would put my gratitude with those amazing men and women who worked through the centuries to bring a workable, dependable system of medicine out of the fog of superstition. The human stories in the history of medicine can be awe-inspiring in terms of the insight, intelligence and dedication of the people responsible for great breakthroughs.
I've yet to see ANY medical knowledge come from anywhere else but the hard work of HUMANS.
I continue to be inspired by and grateful to those working in medicine to make our lives better. My cousin-in-law, a neurobiologist, seems to work night and day in her quest to unravel the mysteries of MS/Parkinson's etc, and provide a treatment. I find it impossible not to be in awe when talking to someone like her; she has an incredible depth of knowledge - real, workable knowledge! Not superstitious "knowledge." It's truly humbling.
That is why I always find myself p*ssed at the idea of
giving all the glory to some invisible object of superstition, rather than to those PEOPLE who really DESERVE our gratitude!!! If God ever shows up and actually gets his hands dirty doing work like my cousin-in-law, and if He actually contributes to our body of workable knowledge, THEN he'll get my gratitude.
Sorry for the rant, but the devaluation of humankind and human achievement that comes with Christianity has always been a sore spot with me.
Joshua, thanks for the link.
Rev, good point. Although I have indeed checked out Christian books (not heavily), and have listened to a fair amount of Christian radio (always when I drive through the southern states). As well, for many years I have visited and participated in Christian (and other) web/usenet forums, and have ready many, many Christian web sites.
Not to mention I've had quite a few Christian friends, from liberals to literalists (to ascetics who abandoned their home to "live as Jesus lived").
So, while I'm not a Christian I wouldn't call myself totally out of touch with Christianity or it's adherents.
But, there is always more to learn, isn't there?
Wait a minute, you forget the pretense of all monothesitic religions. Everything we have, everything we are, it comes directly from God. If he was not to keep the system running, it would fall apart. So while medical knowledge may advance, while theories change, the glue that holds life together, the system of nature that we exist within, the laws of gravity that there are, all are set up and run by God, so if it weren't from him, we would have nothing of this stuff. Doctors, if they had no life, would make not medical discoveries, and if there was no God, they would have no life. That is the pretense of christianity. Every good and perfect gift comes from God. If tahts medicine, music, sculpting, mathematics, whatever, those things are all gifts from God. So ultimately, we have to thank the source of everything for everything.
No reason to get pissed, just take a look from our perspective, we find it just as amazing as you do that people are out there doing this research, challanging and pushing the envelope of science, we just think the root isn't nothingness, it's God. so we thank him for what he does
"im sick and tired of people automatically assuming that ALL of these "faith healers" are fake".
Can you list some names of faith teachers that you don't think are fake? (TV names like Hinn etc...)
This is a pretty good article regarding our boy Benny Hinn
--"Wait a minute, you forget the pretense of all monothesitic religions. Everything we have, everything we are, it comes directly from God."--
Believe me Joshua, I haven't forgotten that. But I do find Christians forget that very same pretense when it becomes inconvenient for them.
--"So ultimately, we have to thank the source of everything for everything."--
And therefore we have G-O-D to thank for: Cancer/AIDS/Diabetes/MS/Parkinsons/Malaria/Dengue Fever/Parasites/Progeria Syndrome/Leprosy and the virtually endless list of horrors that modern medicine must work to combat.
We are supposed to thank God for providing humans with the ability to laboriously piece together a defense against a rage of horrors he has sent at us? (And which constantly changes to defeat our defenses?).
I'm sorry, it doesn't make sense.
look at mini already starting trouble.
I understand your point, I give a great deal of respect to those that have worked so hard to better our lives.
Ofcourse they have also invented a bombs, beepers and twinkies, so they deserve some anger also :)
Prof: I've yet to see ANY medical knowledge come from anywhere else but the hard work of HUMANS.
me: Prof, many contributors to modern medicine based their research, analysis and hypothesis on the fact that the creation is governed by laws that are rationale and understandable.
Louis Pasteur and Gregor Mendel come to mind as two "believers" who specifically worked out hypothesis based on their understanding of a biblical view of the world. Of course there are certainly more.
You know, not all things that seem 'bad' are bad. You mentioned cancer. It is sometimes, in facing death that people can make some of the greatest changes in their life. I saw a sportscentury doc. on Lyle Alzado and he was such a jerk to everyone for a long time. After he was diagnosed with brain tumours, he turned into a humble, nice man. He spent the rest of his days warning people about drugs and trying to reconcile relationships. I think you are assuming that there is nothing to learn, no value in hardship, struggle and death. That sounds like the perspective of one who doesn't see much beyond life.
Hey prof! long time no post... where ya been ya romo?
Ok, here's a link to Cornerstone Magazine who gained a reputation for themselves when they took down the once famous Christian comedian "Mike Warnke" and exposed him for the fraud he was.
They are controversial even among Christians because they're so aggressive.
I think everything that happens, I don't care what it is or how bad it is, has some purpose, and the purpose is good. If it doesn't then God isn't all powerful...but to blame God for the bad is to claim that somehow you have an alternative that would be "better". I will admit that I don't understand the entirety of reality or the rules that it functions by. I would assume that you admit you do not understand the entirety of the natural system either. Unless you can, then I cannot see how you can hold that these things are "bad" on any kind of grand scale. Rooster provided one such example above. Illness and sickness are taught by the bible to be results of the introduction of sin into our enviorment, it was not only a relational change but also a physical fall as well. That would account for all types of illness and sickness, and God is not responsible, though he may be in control of sin.
If you want to read some good arguments about that, check out that same website equip.org, the guy has some really easy to read, entertaining, to the point apologetics on his site.
Rooster: "Prof, many contributors to modern medicine based their research, analysis and hypothesis on the fact that the creation is governed by laws that are rationale and understandable."
I disagree with the implication. Physical matter and laws have been shown to be, on the whole, understandable and predictable. There is no God needed to tell us it is so; it is observed. Yes, much of the past research took place in a Theistic milieu, and some felt they were uncovering the mysteries of God's work. However, all theory proceeded from the basis that certain elements of our physical world had been observed to be understandable and predictable. All progress proceeded upon continued, successful empirical observations. ONLY empirical observation that physical processes could be understood could contribute to progress, NOT the FAITH that those processes should be understandable.
In other words, had physical processes changed willy nilly in an utterly unpredictable manner, progress would have been impossible. Yet FAITH would still have attributed that unpredictability to the mysterious plan of a God. And, in fact, it is when physical laws are reputedly _broken_ such as people rising from the dead and parting of red seas, that believers use as support of God. The "God is responsible for the regularity of matter" hypothesis is, as Christians use it, utterly unfalsifiable, given that God is given credit no matter what the outcome.
- -"I think you are assuming that there is nothing to learn, no value in hardship, struggle and death." - -
Not at all. I think humans can take any adversity and learn from it. Although most of what is learned has to do with how to approach adversity doesn't it? The question is: why the adversity?
- -"That sounds like the perspective of one who doesn't see much beyond life."
Of course I see there being no afterlife. As such, I prize life.
That doesn't mean I don't see "beyond life" in terms of beyond the typical human's life. There is always the legacy of character, example or contribution to humankind one leaves that may continue on after our death.
Naw I'm just curious, I don't have the time to start trouble.
(With that said I do dislike some "teachers" who do nothing but drag Christ's name through the mud).
Holy Cow...Cornerstone is still around? I use to subscribe!
Do you remember the Resurrection Band?
what was Warnke exposed for?
Yup, I'm not a subscriber anymore but they have a huge web presence.
Warnke was exposed for lying about his past. Right now I can't think of any part of it that was actually true. Also, he was not a part of any legitimate ministry and lived off the donations of supporters to the tune of around $400,000 / year and more in assets.
He sounds like a true pathological liar. But... he is now attempting a come back complete with repentance of his former, now admitted, ways.
Sadly, I have all his tapes... LOL! Hey, they'll be worth something one day.
"There is no proof in it. Let's see a real miracle. I want to see someone with severe cerebral palsy healed, a retarded person made hole or someone who's never seen before see"
If you would see a miracle, you would start to ask for RCT to prove what you just witnessed. Nothing bad with that, that´s just how alot of us are.
this sorta reminds me of a few girls I know who are very down to earth and rational however in relationships with guys theyre rationality goes out the window
watch your mouth talk bad about Benny like that.
I'm not going to try to debate or convince you any aspect of religion or christianity because doing that is just too hard and draining BUT I will give you some insight as to the point you brought up concerning christians addressing televanglist like Benny Hinn.
Like it has been state on this thread televanglist like Benny Hinn are target for many christian-base cult watchgroups. These groups don't have alot of money or well financed but they do seem to try to get the word out.
Most of the well known televanglist are vigorously attacked by these watchdog groups.
On one particular websight just about every televanglist I can think of was view as bad and teaching some heretical beliefs. And this site showed no mercy.
In a way I agree with the site. I think the beliefs as well as actions of these so-called christian leaders should be closely examined and scutinized. But at the same time they are sometime too critical. Nonetheless I am one to believe that a prudent mature christian ought to be able to tell what is good doctrine and what is pure BS. In fact I think every Christian has the responsible to protect themsleves againt pseudo-christian nonsense and BS. And they do this by simply being educated themselves on matters concerning Christianity's teachings, doctrines, beliefs and history.
Benny Hinn is one of those terrible so-called preachers who is a fake. I am sure many Christians are aware of this.