Why Isn't Vitali Klitschko the GOAT?

sanguine cynic - 
mrmetoo - What is his biggest win? <br>What is Ali's biggest win? <br>What is sugar rays biggest win? <br><br><br>And who on that list has multiple wins considered better than klitchkos biggest? <img src="/images/phone/droid.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>






You are kind of missing my point..which is how can Klitschko fight a big name fighter when him and his brother dominate everyone ?



If you can't be a champion because there are always two fighters better than you how can you become a big NAME fighter..and that's just what it is..a big NAME...not speaking of talent..



Now I'm not an expert, but are the fighters of 2000 heavyweights demonstrably less talented than those of the 70's? And if so..what makes you say so?



Ali's biggest wins are Joe Frazier and George Foreman...Joe Frazier who weighed as little as 197 pounds at 5'11 for some of his fights and "big" George Foreman who was 227 pounds in his prime.



Boxing was more popular back then, so these people take on mythic status, but if you just look at the size of the fighters, they were tiny compared to today's fighters.





well when i see 215lb david haye manage to be competitive the couple times he actually tried to fight then i'm not worried about 212lb ali or 220lb foreman's chances or 214lb liston. factor in that guys went 15 rounds then and fought at a faster pace, jabbed and moved their heads, it took more conditioning to fight in that era. these 240-250 lb chris arreola's and sam peters would weight 210-220 if they trained like the top contenders did in the 70's. being brave and having good head movement allowed james tony a guy who fought at 158 to literally stand on front of peter and go the distance twice. imagine if that had been shavers or quarry or norton standing on front of him, they would have knocked his block off. foreman vs klit is a hard match up to call, however i do know that there is not a single fighter than wlad has beat that prime foreman wouldn't have beat either.

 

sanguine cynic -
JTShodog - 
sanguine cynic - 43-2 with 40 KO's. He hasn't lost in 8 years. Both his loss's are very controversial.

In his first loss, he was dominating Chris Byrd when Vitali tore his rotator cuff and stopped the fight. He was WAAY ahead on judges scorecards.

Against Lewis, he was ahead 4 rounds to 2, when the fight was stopped against his will due to a cut above his eye that Lennox landed with a grazing punch.

Now..people will say.... the heavyweight division is crap nowadays..is it? Or have the Klitschko brothers just dismantled every challenger so easy that no one has the ability to make a name for themselves?

Would Vitali really lose to Ali? Foreman? How would they beat him?
"With a grazing punch"<br><br>Although Lennox may have been behind a round or two, it was a competitive fight, And a legit punched that caused the cut that eventually ended the fight.<br><br>What's so controversial about it? <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


Vitali wanted to keep fighting.

I agree with you, yes he did want to keep going, but it wasn't controversial, Lennox caused a cut the was severe enough that the DR didn't feel it was safe for him to continue fighting.

He is a hell of a fighter and no question he would have continued if there was no DR to interfere, But the DR did the right thing, The cut was nasty, and Lennox opened the cut with punches which made it a legit stoppage. Phone Post

the hwt division is horrible right now

and I believe one reason is that mma is taking away a ton of talent from boxing

GrapplerHK - the hwt division is horrible right now

and I believe one reason is that mma is taking away a ton of talent from boxing


It's been horrible for a while now. The reason is because athletic guys can make lots of money playing football, basketball and baseball, and there are way fewer boxing gyms around.

Evolvable - From wikipedia:



[snip] He fought them all and that is what a champion is supposed to do.”



I wouldn't be surprised if something similar to this is said about Klitschko when he's done boxing.





 This is my problem with either Klitchko bros. They DID NOT fight "all" of them...BECAUSE...they haven't fought EACH OTHER. 

See the "Championship Fighting by Jack Dempsey" thread on the OG. That is why Vitali the one dimensional robot is not the GOAT.

The 4 best heavyweights of all time were never too popular: Klitschko brothers, Lewis and Larry Holmes

mrmetoo - 
pharochuck -
mrmetoo -  What is his biggest win?
What is Ali's biggest win?
What is sugar rays biggest win?


And who on that list has multiple wins considered better than klitchkos biggest? <img border="0" style="vertical-align: middle;" alt="Phone Post" src="/images/phone/droid.png" />
i can't really decipher if your serious or not. would you be willing to expound on this a little more?
 
My way of thinking is : there has been no other hws to push him to his limit. You could argue that he's just that good but I think we all know that's not true <img src="/images/phone/droid.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


Why do we all know that's just not true?

JTShodog - 
sanguine cynic - 43-2 with 40 KO's. He hasn't lost in 8 years. Both his loss's are very controversial.

In his first loss, he was dominating Chris Byrd when Vitali tore his rotator cuff and stopped the fight. He was WAAY ahead on judges scorecards.

Against Lewis, he was ahead 4 rounds to 2, when the fight was stopped against his will due to a cut above his eye that Lennox landed with a grazing punch.

Now..people will say.... the heavyweight division is crap nowadays..is it? Or have the Klitschko brothers just dismantled every challenger so easy that no one has the ability to make a name for themselves?

Would Vitali really lose to Ali? Foreman? How would they beat him?
"With a grazing punch"

Although Lennox may have been behind a round or two, it was a competitive fight, And a legit punched that caused the cut that eventually ended the fight.

What's so controversial about it? Phone Post



It will always be considered controversial because the fight did not end with a KO or at the end of round 12.

Cut stoppages will always lead to speculation and "what ifs".


pretty simple... especially when a guy is leading on the score card and then loses by cut.

 Anyone who thinks a prime Vitali wouldn't smash a prime Ali is smoking crack.



Ali was tough and a great champion, but Vitali is on another level. The only relevant fight for him right now is his brother, who is exactly the same, exept with a more questionable chin/heart.

Boxers, unlike all other athletes in all other sports, used to be better.



- The OG

Darth Ryase - Boxers, unlike all other athletes in all other sports, <i>used</i> to be better.

- The OG<br type="_moz" />



Exactly. These guys crack me up....

You can look at any sport in the world, ANY sport - from women's fucking rythmic gymnastics, to ice curling, to NFL, to professional tennis - it doesn't matter, every athlete in every sport has gotten significantly better over the last 40 years.

Yet somehow, the boxers from the 70's are better than today's boxers.... what a joke this place can be.

NarlyPersianDude - You actually make a spectacular point, whats funny is that this is referred to as a lower period in boxing, but both Klitckho's and Lewis, are probaby the 3 greatest heavyweights the sport has ever seen.



YaKnow

^This!!! Phone Post

jkd4200 -
JTShodog - 
sanguine cynic - 43-2 with 40 KO's. He hasn't lost in 8 years. Both his loss's are very controversial.

In his first loss, he was dominating Chris Byrd when Vitali tore his rotator cuff and stopped the fight. He was WAAY ahead on judges scorecards.

Against Lewis, he was ahead 4 rounds to 2, when the fight was stopped against his will due to a cut above his eye that Lennox landed with a grazing punch.

Now..people will say.... the heavyweight division is crap nowadays..is it? Or have the Klitschko brothers just dismantled every challenger so easy that no one has the ability to make a name for themselves?

Would Vitali really lose to Ali? Foreman? How would they beat him?
"With a grazing punch"

Although Lennox may have been behind a round or two, it was a competitive fight, And a legit punched that caused the cut that eventually ended the fight.

What's so controversial about it? Phone Post



It will always be considered controversial because the fight did not end with a KO or at the end of round 12.

Cut stoppages will always lead to speculation and "what ifs".


pretty simple... especially when a guy is leading on the score card and then loses by cut.

I do agree with you to a certain extent.

This cut is not arguable in this case, And needed to be stopped I think.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/129790/Lennox-taunts-Klitschko.html?print=yes

All in all I do agree with you. Phone Post

Showtime Kick - Because he is not charismatic self promoting loud mouth who calls himself the greatest and denigrates his opponents treats them with no respect asshole.

Guess who a lot of boxing idiots would consider historically ahead of the Klitschkos in ranking although should be ranked outside of the top ten?

What ten heavy weights would you rank ahead of a prime Ali? Phone Post

People can't get over the fact that a white guy is the Heavyweight champ, it boggles their little minds.

 I don't know how to rate Vitali. Part of me thinks that he's a stiff Jess Willard ox, on top of a division desperate for a new Dempsey to KO him and make boxing interesting again. And part of me is impressed with the guy for not losing a round in 8 years. Has he lost more than 5 rounds in his entire career? Has he ever been hurt? He has the highest KO% in HW Championship history: higher than Tyson, Foreman, Dempsey and Louis.



He'd be hell in a fight for any all time HW. No one would have an easy night with that big, awkward monster across the ring from them.



Marciano and Tyson didn't have the best comp, but their eras are like Ali's in comparison to the K bros.



If Vitali and Wlad were Americans, they'd be the most famous athletes in the country. Imagine good looking, educated, dominant HW champ brothers. The perfect endorsers. Too bad their Soviet Super Robots

 You guys are so stupid!  Klitschko got hit with one damn grazing punch and the fight got stopped.  Just a flesh wound.  ONE GRAZING PUNCH!!!!!






 one punch that split him 2x over the eye, 2x under the eye, and upper and lower lips.  Greatest single punch in boxing history

lennox lewis cut him and then rubbed his dreadlocks in the cut when they locked up to open the cut. lewis was being outclassed in that fight. it was not competitive.