This video shows some excellent moves that looks like it would work in MMA. As far as I know, only Josh Barnett seems to make it work. Why so few fighters with a CW base?
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How many catch clubs are in your town? How many BJJ clubs are in your town?Â
Simple statistics will answer why there's no catch guys in the UFC, it has nothing to do with the efficacy of the sport. Just not as many places teaching it unfortunately. I really wish this would change as the two would bring each other up, look how much wrestling has evolved in BJJ and changed what ADCC looked like in 2019.Â
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A lot of catch and bjj are identical so it gets grouped under an umbrella of bjj ( even though bjj really only happens in a gi, oddly enough )
Second. Most people have no clue what catch is or where to train it.Â
Rip billy robinson
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Very effective.
* On a SideNote:Â I saw a amateur heavyweight submit another fighter using the third technique late last year at a Cage Wars show in Schenectedy, NY.
People have sort of fetishized catch wrestling. It's wrestling. It's the best base for MMA, be it folk greco, f/s, etc. Best form of wrestling is maybe what they are doing in Dagestan. Some people want to just learn super secret catch wrestling moves. It reminds me of the blue belts in the 90s who thought they could beat Mike Tyson. It's worthless unless you can wrestle.
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Kirik -ÂPeople have sort of fetishized catch wrestling. It's wrestling. It's the best base for MMA, be it folk greco, f/s, etc. Best form of wrestling is maybe what they are doing in Dagestan. Some people want to just learn super secret catch wrestling moves. It reminds me of the blue belts in the 90s who thought they could beat Mike Tyson. It's worthless unless you can wrestle.
Agreed.
I think it’s important to note that a lot of the best Dagestanti/Caucasian wrestlers have been very heavily influenced by the top rides of American folkstyle wrestling. (And I’m not disagreeing with what you say, just adding to it). Watch Khabib’s top game evolve over the years–very clearly influenced by DC.
Freestyle wrestling doesn’t really have a spiral ride or wrist rides. Folkstyle does. And once the Russians started learning those rides – at AKA, at Ricardo Almeida’s, etc. – they became much, much better.
Guess it should be no surprise that submissions billed as “secret” look like they suffer from a serious lack of peer review.
(Criticism applies to the posted series of moves, not catch/wrestling/bjj/judo/etc.)
I like a catch a lot. There’s a lot of great concepts. Most of the “experts” are contrarian types who would be average at best jiu-jitsu competitors. That way they can be like, well “you wouldnt beat me if pins were allowed”. The typical “too dangerous to spar” type excuse.Â
Conceptually and technically there are some gems within catch if you know what you’re looking for. The modern leg sub game in sub grappling is almost all catch based. The standup/takedown game being shown at the average catch seminar is atrocious. It’s like watching guys wrestle on some degraded old film reel from 1900 or they look like ridiculous wwf moves.Â
Where catch is at a huge huge deficit in 2020 is there hasn’t been legitimate catch competition in a century. bjj, the rest of wrestling, Judo, sambo etc have been honed and progressed by 100 years of competition and preparation. Catch turned into a soap opera stunt show geared towards little kids, chubby dorks in their 30’s and the developmentally disabled.Â
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HillboFrateTrane -ÂI like a catch a lot. There’s a lot of great concepts. Most of the “experts” are contrarian types who would be average at best jiu-jitsu competitors. That way they can be like, well “you wouldnt beat me if pins were allowed”. The typical “too dangerous to spar” type excuse.Â
Conceptually and technically there are some gems within catch if you know what you’re looking for. The modern leg sub game in sub grappling is almost all catch based. The standup/takedown game being shown at the average catch seminar is atrocious. It’s like watching guys wrestle on some degraded old film reel from 1900.Â
Where catch is at a huge huge deficit in 2020 is there hasn’t been legitimate catch competition in a century. bjj, the rest of wrestling, Judo, sambo etc have been honed and progressed by 100 years of competition and preparation. Catch turned into a soap opera stunt show geared towards little kids, chubby dorks in their 30’s and the developmentally disabled.Â
Great post.
The best catch influenced grapplers in recent times were all heavily influenced by other disciplines, open-minded, and friendly to competition. (Paulson, Barnett, Hume, Neil Melanson, etc.)
Its not JUST wrestling with submissions dumped on it. Billy Robinson talked plently about the alterations to wrestling technique that were necessay to eliminate the threat of submission.
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BusterBluth -ÂIts not JUST wrestling with submissions dumped on it. Billy Robinson talked plently about the alterations to wrestling technique that were necessay to eliminate the threat of submission.
Of course. But, all wrestling styles are changed based on rules. If you grow up wrestling folkstyle, your bottom game has to change dramatically when you move to freestyle.
The two biggest names (at least in America) in Catch being Matt Furey & Tony Cecchine when BJJ was really starting to take off didn’t do it any favors.
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wiggum -Kirik -ÂPeople have sort of fetishized catch wrestling. It's wrestling. It's the best base for MMA, be it folk greco, f/s, etc. Best form of wrestling is maybe what they are doing in Dagestan. Some people want to just learn super secret catch wrestling moves. It reminds me of the blue belts in the 90s who thought they could beat Mike Tyson. It's worthless unless you can wrestle.
Agreed.
I think it’s important to note that a lot of the best Dagestanti/Caucasian wrestlers have been very heavily influenced by the top rides of American folk wrestling. (And I’m not disagreeing with what you say, just adding to it). Watch Khabib’s top game evolve over the years–very clearly influenced by DC.
Free wrestling doesn’t really have a spiral ride or wrist rides. Folk does. And once the Russians started learning those rides – at AKA, at Ricardo Almeida’s, etc. – they became much, much better.
Its worth pointing out that folk began in the 20’s and it sounds like all the dangers of catch had to be removed so wrestling could be a sport safe enough to offer in colleges and high schools. It got to the point I’d say 99% of folk guys have no catch knowledge that someone like Saku or Barnett would have.
Folk has for sure influenced Khabib’s MMA free wrestling, judo and sambo base. Add up everything he does and he is sort of “cutting ege” in his MMA grappling.
Meanwhile Tony’s folk base has been heavily influenced by the 10th Planet BJJ system. His versatility is on display in a very different way.
I think both Khabib and Tony are pretty versatile out there and and show a wider variety of techniques tailored for MMA than the 1st gen of fighters from folk, judo, BJJ bases.
Wiggy - The two biggest names (at least in America) in Catch being Matt Furey & Tony Cecchine when BJJ was *really* starting to take off didn't do it any favors.
Your lucky Matt can't compete in the next ADCC, no can defend Farmer Burns ghost in the corner.
wiggum -BusterBluth -ÂIts not JUST wrestling with submissions dumped on it. Billy Robinson talked plently about the alterations to wrestling technique that were necessay to eliminate the threat of submission.
Of course. But, all wrestling styles are changed based on rules. If you grow up wrestling folkstyle, your bottom game has to change dramatically when you move to freestyle.
Right, and since catch wrestling is being discussed it might be a good idea to point out that these "super secret" techniques as mentioned above, are in fact the subtlties that make catch wrestling what it is.
Grappling is grappling, it’s the rules that differ
^^Good posts all around.
ttt
Wiggy - The two biggest names (at least in America) in Catch being Matt Furey & Tony Cecchine when BJJ was *really* starting to take off didn't do it any favors.
Are we still waiting a few years until their students take over ADCC?
Im just not clear on that,
FingerorMoon -Wiggy - The two biggest names (at least in America) in Catch being Matt Furey & Tony Cecchine when BJJ was *really* starting to take off didn't do it any favors.Â
Are we still waiting a few years until their students take over ADCC?
Im just not clear on that,
10th planet was also set to take over no-gi and mma.Â