Why so Few Catch Wrestling Techniques in MMA?

wiggum - 
Kirik - 

People have sort of fetishized catch wrestling. It's wrestling. It's the best base for MMA, be it folk greco, f/s, etc. Best form of wrestling is maybe what they are doing in Dagestan. Some people want to just learn super secret catch wrestling moves. It reminds me of the blue belts in the 90s who thought they could beat Mike Tyson. It's worthless unless you can wrestle.


Agreed.

I think it's important to note that a lot of the best Dagestanti/Caucasian wrestlers have been very heavily influenced by the top rides of American folkstyle wrestling. (And I'm not disagreeing with what you say, just adding to it). Watch Khabib's top game evolve over the years--very clearly influenced by DC.

Freestyle wrestling doesn't really have a spiral ride or wrist rides. Folkstyle does. And once the Russians started learning those rides -- at AKA, at Ricardo Almeida's, etc. -- they became much, much better.

And the judo/sambo on the side. That with Khabibs wrestling with American collegiate with DC/AKA is what makes him the most complete grappler.

Also we always say "Greco" but forget that in the US anyhow, all Greco guys grew up doing collegiate.

Anyone mention Sakuraba in this thread btw?

e. kaye - 

No chokes?  LOL 


Sport sambo doesn't allow chokes either. That doesn't mean that players don't know how to choke.

Sport Catch?  ??

 

Matches back then had whatever  rules the combatants agreed to.

Red Stuff,

The first video that you posted shows the attacking wrestler releasing a side headlock and executing a school boy roll.

The second video shows a far arm/near leg break down.

Is being a "catch wrestler" different than being a BJJ guy that favors a top game vice guard?  If so, how.

Yes, there's many catch wrestling moves. They just use different terms.

Yes. The rides and movement are entirely different.

e. kaye -

Yes. The rides and movement are entirely different.

How so?  And are the rides and movement restricted in BJJ?  From the videos posted, some of the rides look like what I've seen from guys with more of a top BJJ.  

James Franco -

When I learned 20 or so catch techniques while I was doing bjj, my bjj went through the roof because there were a ton of submissions from the same position that were simpler and never taught in bjj. It's not the same at all. 

can you give an example?

Yes. The rides and movement are entirely different.

Dory - Red Stuff,

The first video that you posted shows the attacking wrestler releasing a side headlock and executing a school boy roll.

The second video shows a far arm/near leg break down.

That's awesome. Thanks.

nek -

Is being a "catch wrestler" different than being a BJJ guy that favors a top game vice guard?  If so, how.

This is a good question imo. 


 



A big difference between a pure catch guy and a bjj guy that favors a top game is the bjj guy that favors a top game has a bottom game that he can rely on if he is forced to play from bottom. That is perhaps the biggest difference because no matter how good your catch is there is someone out there who can put you on your back and its best to learn guard if that is the case imo. But I am pretty sure you are wanting to know if there is a difference in the way that they play top and the answer to that is yes.


 


Keep in mind that bjj has borrowed from catch also its not just the catch guys who have learned guard and taken from bjj so some of the stuff I mention bjj guys can do very well.


 


Takedowns is a big difference. Catch obviously has a much more elaborate takedown and takedown defense game. When the fight hits the ground bjj has a very good positional strategy that uses high percentage positions and high percentage submissions... pass, side, mount, and back. Catch uses those too but a practitioner might be more likely to branch off into positions and submissions that arent the game taught in bjj. For example if a bjj guy gets top position and has the back with the guy on bottom flattend out. He will just secure back mount and choke his opponent out. In catch you might see the top guy crab ride, come off to the side, cradle, neck crank, etc. Or if the guy is on his back and the top guy is passed the guard the bjj guy will use the common controls and submissions but the catch guy might use something like Barnett did against lister in a scarf type of hold, which in bjj is typically avoided due to the direct path to the back from the guy on bottom. But a good catch guy will use it and shut off the path with good control and even secure submissions from the position like Barnett did to Lister.


 


Catch also pays attention to pressure points and will use them in transition to set up submissions and make trasitions easier. For example passing the guard a bjj guy might simply knee slide while a catch guy might look to drive his knee into a pressure point or staple with a shin on a pressure point in order to cause a reaction. Or in side control the catch guy might dig some elbows into pressure points in order to get a reaction, etc. These are not some bull shit pressure point stuff either, they are effective techniques that et a reaction. Same with neck cranks. In bjj these might be looked at like "dick moves" but in mma or a fight for your life they are good to know.

BTW, in my opinion every bjj guy should be a bjj guy that favors top position but can fight off his back. I know with the sport now days they have guys who favor bottom in order to win the competition but that is one thing I liked about the bjj competitions from the 90's and 2000's, it more resembled a real fight. 

LOL, grinding and tortures.   My fave.I 

Calhoon -

A couple of years ago there was some talk back and forth on the internet between Curren Jacobs and Gordon Ryan but nothing ever came of it. With Gordon beating Barnett who is a catch representative and the wrestlers like Downey and Nickal maybe now is the time for a promoter to book Gordon and Jacobs. The trash talk back and forth before was pretty good.

 

Jacobs isn't even in the same stratosphere as Gordon. He likely would even win adcc trials. He might not even place. 

Animal Mother -
Calhoon -

A couple of years ago there was some talk back and forth on the internet between Curren Jacobs and Gordon Ryan but nothing ever came of it. With Gordon beating Barnett who is a catch representative and the wrestlers like Downey and Nickal maybe now is the time for a promoter to book Gordon and Jacobs. The trash talk back and forth before was pretty good.


 


Jacobs isn't even in the same stratosphere as Gordon. 

Don't get me wrong, I would bet on Gordon.

when i was a white belt back in 00's i was learning the 'bjj forbidden leglocks" from Tony C's catch leglock instructional. luckily i had an instructor that was open minded. we also had a russian guy who knew sambo training with us and learned alot of their leglocks. been doing the honeyhole back then. we had few fighters fight in hawaii's Superbrawl finishing with heelhooks back in the day. good times

The first move has been my go to darce set up for about 15 years.  Hard to finish with it, but sets up head and arm chokes and triangles really well.  We never named it though.

ttt