Why so few push-arm-out-triangles?

Underground
1

When I'm watching MMA fights and one guy is in the other guy's guard, I see openings for the triangle choke setup in which you push the arm out ALL THE TIME. Especially when the top guy pulls the arm back to punch.

I was watching an old Pride fight with Jeremy Horn vs. some Japanese guy and Jeremy would try this move all the time, like a good guard player should, in my opinion. I think it's one of the most high percentage moves there are from the guard and it can work well against strikes.

So why do so few people use it in MMA? Most of the so called "grapplers" in MMA seem to just lay there in their guard and just hold their opponent! WTF?

Ok, any opinions?

Regards,

jonpall.

2

good question

my only thought is that maybe they are expecting or waiting for a different opening, and fail to jump right for the one mentioned above when it comes

3

It's also a hard move to pull off sucessfully on a huge guy, IMO. Maybe it is a low percentage move for many practitioners due to anatomy. You tend to see the "big strong striker" in the guard of the "skilled grappler". Perhaps simple anatomy of reaching around a guy with an 18 inch neck and 18 inch arms to grab your own arm is difficult against a larger opponent, particularly if they are resisting. Most of my opponents are smaller than me in training so I really couldn't comment on that situation, but I know several of them have a hell of a time getting the move locked on me, and I am by no means a huge beast like pro-MMA fighters often are.

Just my two cents, I don't claim to be an expert, unless a hot chick is asking. j/k

4

Jeremy Horn went for it all the time in that fight and even got it several times, but as an armchair quarterback, my opinion is that he needs to work more on keeping the head down more ;) Really, that was how his opponent always escaped the triangle. I do this move against lard ass fatties in my gym that outweigh me by a school bus and I can still get it. Muahahahaha.

About getting hit while trying it: You shouldn't get hit if you know how to do it. Jeremy didn't get hit when he went for it. Actually, I'd argue that the chances of getting hit while trying this move are LESS than if you just hold the guy in your guard and are square on to him.

Both his arms should be at your sides - neither arm should be on your upper body. If you keep his head down with one of your arms and one of your legs, push that arm out and shrimp out, he can't hit you with any force with either arm. With the arm you're NOT grabbing, he can only hit you with girly punches. And if he tries to hit you with his OTHER arm, he just gave you the triangle. Let's HOPE he tries to hit you with that arm!

Any more comments, please?

5

There are way too many cons to trying that move and failing. 9 times out of 10 the top man will throw the leg to the side and get side mount.

6

i think thats how nog caugt coleman

7

"It's much easier to analyze at home than to do it in the middle of a fight. "

For sure. But I STILL think that a part of the reason is that many guys just don't know how powerful this move can be, even in MMA.

8

I think what Dashooter said i you fail the guy has sidemount. but i think it is easier to hit a triangle in a MMA match as opposed to just straight grappling

9

If you are good at submissions, you can switch to another one instead of have your guard passed. And just "throwing the leg over and going to side mount" is not very high percentage against triangles, anyway.

10

Nate Quarry is very good with the triangle in MMA.

11

The bottom line is EVERYONE that gets a shot at the UFC is going to have serious grappling skills, when combined with the usual strength and conditioning of the athletes involved... Well, I can see why that sub would be very hard to get. (Are we talking arm triangle as in how Sperry tapped Igor?)

12

Oh actual triangles? Right well, no way you gonna break down the posture of some of boys in UFC, if not they're wrestling base, the strength of the athletes alone makes the move too risky. You'll just get passed.

13

"If you are good at submissions, you can switch to another one instead of have your guard passed. And just "throwing the leg over and going to side mount" is not very high percentage against triangles, anyway."

If the triangle fails the only other subs the guy on the bottom can go for are the armbar or the omaplata, which are really low percentage moves from that position.

14

"no way you gonna break down the posture of some of boys in UFC, if not they're wrestling base, the strength of the athletes alone makes the move too risky. You'll just get passed. "

What are you talking about? For the guard position, it's VERY common that the top guy has his face in the other guy's chest, which is a good opportunity for this move.

"If the triangle fails the only other subs the guy on the bottom can go for are the armbar or the omaplata, which are really low percentage moves from that position. "

A guy that's good with the triangle and perhaps also those other 2 moves, will be able to flow between all those moves and NOT get his guard passed. Actually, when the triangle fails, you don't necessarely have to go to another submission - you can just go back to your guard.

Honestly, I think that the reason is mostly that this move isn't taught widely enough and isn't a part of that many guys' strategy. I DON'T think it's that risky. Tell me what you would do instead, then? Just lie there and do nothing except throw the occasional weak punch? And hope that the referee stands you up later?

If you are going to be ACTIVE from the bottom of the guard and try ANYTHING instead of just stalling, this push-arm-out triangle setup is, in my opinion, a great move. I use the move all the time in submission grappling and I admit that I have little MMA experience. But I still see that this very move is one of the most commonly used guard attacks from the best "guard submitters" in todays MMA, like Nogueira and Jeremy Horn.

If I'm not mistaken, Eddie Bravo is basing his MMA guard program on the danger of this submission setup, f.ex. from his various rubber guard variations.

ttt for input from someone who is not just "guessing". He, he, unlike me and probably some of the guys on this thread :)

Cheers,

jonpall.

15

A great thread by jonpall once again!

16

From the MMA sparring I have done.....(and I am by no means a pro fighter or close to pro fighter)

I find that attempting that move is risky unless you have an overhook (like the Eddie sub on Royler). I have tried it often and my opponant ussually gets his left knee in the way and throws a right hand (I am pushing the left hand out).

The overhook fixes that problem (obviously)

17

I do it both with an overhook and with a head grab. I sometimes try the "meat hook" rubber guard version of it, too. I prefer the head grab because it makes it harder for my opponent to drive his head forwards and make the triangle next to impossible. If he were to strike with his free hand, I guess I would just tuck in my chin and look the other way for the few seconds it takes to do this setup. But for this move just like any other, practise makes perfect.

18

ttt

19

Genki Sudo hit this vs. Leigh Thomas twice, I think. I think he did it against Craig Oxley in a Pancrase match as well? Can't remember, only saw that video once.

Anyway, I do think it's an excellent tech and one that people will continue to exploit more and more. Guys who have complete faith in their ability to recover guard (like Mino) are going to be more apt to jump for subs like that than more cautious fighters.

20

To be really good at triangles or the guard in general, you should have long legs. I have really long legs and I am able to hit the triangle a lot in BJJ class. This is why Mino is so good in the guard.
But the bottom line is, when your getting hit in the face or are in danger of getting hit in the face, things change. You starting thinking, "shit, I better not try that move cause Im gonna eat some wicked knees!" and therefore you dont try for it.
As for Mino, I think he just has major balls.