Bobby Lupo - BruteDion - Bobby Lupo -
This is fascinating. None of those champions are really attributte based fighters. They're either very well rounded: Mighty Mouse, Stipe, Cormier, Woodley, or very good at the one thing they do: Conor and Joanna,
Guys like Silva, Vitor, GSP, Rumble, etc. rely on their physical attributes more than a mastery of any one area of the game.
IDK bout the that in terms of the guys you lised.
Silva is a master Muay Thai guy for mma. His mastery of striking is what cared him so long after his prime. As i said before, power is normally the last thing to go on a fighter. The first 2 things are reflexes and pure speed. His peak in thos areas were long ago. He would not still be fighting well today if he was not a master striker.
GSP was a great athlete but he was a great wrestler aswell.
I'm going to both agree and disagree about Silva. He's an elite strikier for MMA no question, and during his run of dominance he was a MT specialist with a BJJ BB
Anderson hasn't won a fight in 5 years. Against Leben and Franklin, Silva was the most dangerous man in the clinch. He was frighteningly accurate. Contrast with Silva getting uppercutted by Brunson last night in a clinch Anderson initiated. Anderson stopped being a Muay Thai master in the cage over a decade ago. He abandoned his clinch game for years.
Anderson was a reflex fighter like Roy Jones. It allowed him to do all that Matrix shit and clown guys as badly as he did former LHW champ Forrest Griffin. But, once age slowed him down, he couldn't play the same game against Chris Weidman. He was just a hundreth of a second slower, but that's the difference between highlight reel defense, and being the victim of a highlight reel KO.
Anderson was also a known casualty of USADA
I agree somewhat.
But you said he relied on physical attributes. So which is it? Does he rely on them or not?
My whole post was to say he didnt rely on them because he was a master striker aswell. Im not saying he didnt rely on physical skills. Fact is he had top levels of both. He was an amazing blend of Skill meets Talent. And when old age robbed him of his talent as reflexes, he now only has his skills in the stiking arts.
Your first post said he relyed on his physical talents. So which is it?
Physical decline is in the 2nd half of your 30s.
You don't turn 30 and fall apart.
And it tends to be a snowball effect in your late 30s, early 40s.
Most people OP are under the 35 mark.
Its rarer to see someone successful at say, 38.
Thingading - Bobby Lupo - BruteDion - Bobby Lupo -
This is fascinating. None of those champions are really attributte based fighters. They're either very well rounded: Mighty Mouse, Stipe, Cormier, Woodley, or very good at the one thing they do: Conor and Joanna,
Guys like Silva, Vitor, GSP, Rumble, etc. rely on their physical attributes more than a mastery of any one area of the game.
IDK bout the that in terms of the guys you lised.
Silva is a master Muay Thai guy for mma. His mastery of striking is what cared him so long after his prime. As i said before, power is normally the last thing to go on a fighter. The first 2 things are reflexes and pure speed. His peak in thos areas were long ago. He would not still be fighting well today if he was not a master striker.
GSP was a great athlete but he was a great wrestler aswell.
I'm going to both agree and disagree about Silva. He's an elite strikier for MMA no question, and during his run of dominance he was a MT specialist with a BJJ BB
Anderson hasn't won a fight in 5 years. Against Leben and Franklin, Silva was the most dangerous man in the clinch. He was frighteningly accurate. Contrast with Silva getting uppercutted by Brunson last night in a clinch Anderson initiated. Anderson stopped being a Muay Thai master in the cage over a decade ago. He abandoned his clinch game for years.
Anderson was a reflex fighter like Roy Jones. It allowed him to do all that Matrix shit and clown guys as badly as he did former LHW champ Forrest Griffin. But, once age slowed him down, he couldn't play the same game against Chris Weidman. He was just a hundreth of a second slower, but that's the difference between highlight reel defense, and being the victim of a highlight reel KO.
Anderson was also a known casualty of USADA
I always wondered if Andy was.....say 32 instead of 38, if the clowning and matrix reflex stuff would have also worked against Weidman and he would have gotten another W.
Or if Weidman (and Rockhold, for that matter) was just plain better and it wouldn't have mattered how old Andy was.
And then we found out Andy was a doper, which made me reconsider his entire title reign. I'm sure some of the guys he beat were also dopers, but I don't think they all necessarily were.
Weidman doesn't make it out of the first round with a 32-year-old Silva, and I'm a big fan of Chris. That Silva that demolished Forrest would have ran through Weidman and Rockhold and Bisping, and maybe even DC, but that's a hard fight for any fighter ever.
Bobby Lupo -
EckY - 28-32 is when most guys are in their prime in MMA, experience means a lot and top guys hardly fight these days.
Agreed. To become proficient at the multiple ranges of fighting MMA takes longer than skill development in other single focus sports. Primes come a bit later in MMA.
In most other sports once an athlete passes 27, they're on the downside.
Which is further reason why the UFC/WME-IMG needs to STOP ramming 19-23 years olds like VanZant, Northcutt & Grasso down our throats before they have a chance to actually reach their prime.
It is just making the organization look stupid as hell when these fighters then get owned, sometimes by fighters we've never even heard of.
They should instead be looking at fighters in their prime on the rise and promoting them. Not a bunch of kids who are nowhere close to their peak.
BruteDion - Bobby Lupo - BruteDion - Bobby Lupo -
This is fascinating. None of those champions are really attributte based fighters. They're either very well rounded: Mighty Mouse, Stipe, Cormier, Woodley, or very good at the one thing they do: Conor and Joanna,
Guys like Silva, Vitor, GSP, Rumble, etc. rely on their physical attributes more than a mastery of any one area of the game.
IDK bout the that in terms of the guys you lised.
Silva is a master Muay Thai guy for mma. His mastery of striking is what cared him so long after his prime. As i said before, power is normally the last thing to go on a fighter. The first 2 things are reflexes and pure speed. His peak in thos areas were long ago. He would not still be fighting well today if he was not a master striker.
GSP was a great athlete but he was a great wrestler aswell.
I'm going to both agree and disagree about Silva. He's an elite strikier for MMA no question, and during his run of dominance he was a MT specialist with a BJJ BB
Anderson hasn't won a fight in 5 years. Against Leben and Franklin, Silva was the most dangerous man in the clinch. He was frighteningly accurate. Contrast with Silva getting uppercutted by Brunson last night in a clinch Anderson initiated. Anderson stopped being a Muay Thai master in the cage over a decade ago. He abandoned his clinch game for years.
Anderson was a reflex fighter like Roy Jones. It allowed him to do all that Matrix shit and clown guys as badly as he did former LHW champ Forrest Griffin. But, once age slowed him down, he couldn't play the same game against Chris Weidman. He was just a hundreth of a second slower, but that's the difference between highlight reel defense, and being the victim of a highlight reel KO.
Anderson was also a known casualty of USADA
I agree somewhat.
But you said he relied on physical attributes. So which is it? Does he rely on them or not?
My whole post was to say he didnt rely on them because he was a master striker aswell. Im not saying he didnt rely on physical skills. Fact is he had top levels of both. He was an amazing blend of Skill meets Talent. And when old age robbed him of his talent as reflexes, he now only has his skills in the stiking arts.
Your first post said he relyed on his physical talents. So which is it?
He was an attribute guy. He gets away with that clowning vs Weidman if he was 31 instead of 38.
The Silva that used Muay Thai so beautifully against Leben and Franklin abandoned that art when Affliction shirts were still popular. He flirted with boxing, TKD, and other TMA striking arts.
His speed, power, and reflexes allowed him to do that.
CRE - Because athletes do not hit their prime until 27-33 years old?
That was always my understanding. Right around 30-31 males hit their physical peak. No scientific data to back that up, just what I remember hearing around the gym.
Bobby Lupo - Thingading - Bobby Lupo - BruteDion - Bobby Lupo -
This is fascinating. None of those champions are really attributte based fighters. They're either very well rounded: Mighty Mouse, Stipe, Cormier, Woodley, or very good at the one thing they do: Conor and Joanna,
Guys like Silva, Vitor, GSP, Rumble, etc. rely on their physical attributes more than a mastery of any one area of the game.
IDK bout the that in terms of the guys you lised.
Silva is a master Muay Thai guy for mma. His mastery of striking is what cared him so long after his prime. As i said before, power is normally the last thing to go on a fighter. The first 2 things are reflexes and pure speed. His peak in thos areas were long ago. He would not still be fighting well today if he was not a master striker.
GSP was a great athlete but he was a great wrestler aswell.
I'm going to both agree and disagree about Silva. He's an elite strikier for MMA no question, and during his run of dominance he was a MT specialist with a BJJ BB
Anderson hasn't won a fight in 5 years. Against Leben and Franklin, Silva was the most dangerous man in the clinch. He was frighteningly accurate. Contrast with Silva getting uppercutted by Brunson last night in a clinch Anderson initiated. Anderson stopped being a Muay Thai master in the cage over a decade ago. He abandoned his clinch game for years.
Anderson was a reflex fighter like Roy Jones. It allowed him to do all that Matrix shit and clown guys as badly as he did former LHW champ Forrest Griffin. But, once age slowed him down, he couldn't play the same game against Chris Weidman. He was just a hundreth of a second slower, but that's the difference between highlight reel defense, and being the victim of a highlight reel KO.
Anderson was also a known casualty of USADA
I always wondered if Andy was.....say 32 instead of 38, if the clowning and matrix reflex stuff would have also worked against Weidman and he would have gotten another W.
Or if Weidman (and Rockhold, for that matter) was just plain better and it wouldn't have mattered how old Andy was.
And then we found out Andy was a doper, which made me reconsider his entire title reign. I'm sure some of the guys he beat were also dopers, but I don't think they all necessarily were.
Weidman doesn't make it out of the first round with a 32-year-old Silva, and I'm a big fan of Chris. That Silva that demolished Forrest would have ran through Weidman and Rockhold and Bisping, and maybe even DC, but that's a hard fight for any fighter ever.
I probably agree he beats Weidman. But do you think he takes out a prime Rockhold (providing Luke has his head on straight and takes him seriously, unlike what he did against Bisping the 2nd fight) with ease?
Rockhold is huge and extremely well rounded. I think that would be a great and close fight. Do you think there is a chance of that, or do you think 32 year old Andy easily beats Rockhold? And remember, we are talking about Andy version 2 for this fight (ie no PEDS this time).
Bobby Lupo - BruteDion - Bobby Lupo - BruteDion - Bobby Lupo -
This is fascinating. None of those champions are really attributte based fighters. They're either very well rounded: Mighty Mouse, Stipe, Cormier, Woodley, or very good at the one thing they do: Conor and Joanna,
Guys like Silva, Vitor, GSP, Rumble, etc. rely on their physical attributes more than a mastery of any one area of the game.
IDK bout the that in terms of the guys you lised.
Silva is a master Muay Thai guy for mma. His mastery of striking is what cared him so long after his prime. As i said before, power is normally the last thing to go on a fighter. The first 2 things are reflexes and pure speed. His peak in thos areas were long ago. He would not still be fighting well today if he was not a master striker.
GSP was a great athlete but he was a great wrestler aswell.
I'm going to both agree and disagree about Silva. He's an elite strikier for MMA no question, and during his run of dominance he was a MT specialist with a BJJ BB
Anderson hasn't won a fight in 5 years. Against Leben and Franklin, Silva was the most dangerous man in the clinch. He was frighteningly accurate. Contrast with Silva getting uppercutted by Brunson last night in a clinch Anderson initiated. Anderson stopped being a Muay Thai master in the cage over a decade ago. He abandoned his clinch game for years.
Anderson was a reflex fighter like Roy Jones. It allowed him to do all that Matrix shit and clown guys as badly as he did former LHW champ Forrest Griffin. But, once age slowed him down, he couldn't play the same game against Chris Weidman. He was just a hundreth of a second slower, but that's the difference between highlight reel defense, and being the victim of a highlight reel KO.
Anderson was also a known casualty of USADA
I agree somewhat.
But you said he relied on physical attributes. So which is it? Does he rely on them or not?
My whole post was to say he didnt rely on them because he was a master striker aswell. Im not saying he didnt rely on physical skills. Fact is he had top levels of both. He was an amazing blend of Skill meets Talent. And when old age robbed him of his talent as reflexes, he now only has his skills in the stiking arts.
Your first post said he relyed on his physical talents. So which is it?
He was an attribute guy. He gets away with that clowning vs Weidman if he was 31 instead of 38.
The Silva that used Muay Thai so beautifully against Leben and Franklin abandoned that art when Affliction shirts were still popular. He flirted with boxing, TKD, and other TMA striking arts.
His speed, power, and reflexes allowed him to do that.
So his early success had nothing to do with him being amazing MT guy for mma?
It was all physical gifts? lol ok dude.
Thats why MT coaches were speaking high of him back in the day when he was walking through guys like Rich Franklin through Vitor.
If you are right that it was pure physical, then how come he lost before he was UFC champ? Did somehow over night his reflexes get better as he got older? Or was it that he started to perfect his style?
Wiles and tricks, arcane knowledge learned by years of experience
This is interesting, good thread OP. I took the logic to other sports and there are some there too like LeBron James, Vince Carter, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, James Harrison, a few baseball players too. Seems age isn't that much of a factor.
Mo Phenomenal - This is interesting, good thread OP. I took the logic to other sports and there are some there too like LeBron James, Vince Carter, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, James Harrison, a few baseball players too. Seems age isn't that much of a factor.
Hey thanks, man. And you named some other top athletes performing well at an advanced age for pro sports.
I think with the combined advancements in medicine, nutrition, supplements (legal), euipment and ways to train (cardio, weights, and individual sport specific exercises/drills) and rest/sleep have all combined to extend the career of a lot of athletes. And for their minds, many admit to seeing not only their team's, but also their own personal sports pyschologist. No one did that kind of thing back in the day.
But now it seems 30-35 can be one's "golden years." Lots of experience, with tools to help keep you relatively injury free, and what little you've lost physically compared to when you were 25 can be made up in other ways.
Heck, the last major tennis tournament (Australian Open) had 3 of the 4 men/women in the singles finals match all over 30, and 3 of the 4 were 35+! (Federer, Nadal & the Williams Sisters)
A few years ago, especially in that sport, this would have been unheard of. Most pro tennis players historically have been done by their late 20s or by the time they reach 30. Their careers have definately been extended over the last decade or two.
Thingading - Bobby Lupo - Thingading - Bobby Lupo - BruteDion - Bobby Lupo -
This is fascinating. None of those champions are really attributte based fighters. They're either very well rounded: Mighty Mouse, Stipe, Cormier, Woodley, or very good at the one thing they do: Conor and Joanna,
Guys like Silva, Vitor, GSP, Rumble, etc. rely on their physical attributes more than a mastery of any one area of the game.
IDK bout the that in terms of the guys you lised.
Silva is a master Muay Thai guy for mma. His mastery of striking is what cared him so long after his prime. As i said before, power is normally the last thing to go on a fighter. The first 2 things are reflexes and pure speed. His peak in thos areas were long ago. He would not still be fighting well today if he was not a master striker.
GSP was a great athlete but he was a great wrestler aswell.
I'm going to both agree and disagree about Silva. He's an elite strikier for MMA no question, and during his run of dominance he was a MT specialist with a BJJ BB
Anderson hasn't won a fight in 5 years. Against Leben and Franklin, Silva was the most dangerous man in the clinch. He was frighteningly accurate. Contrast with Silva getting uppercutted by Brunson last night in a clinch Anderson initiated. Anderson stopped being a Muay Thai master in the cage over a decade ago. He abandoned his clinch game for years.
Anderson was a reflex fighter like Roy Jones. It allowed him to do all that Matrix shit and clown guys as badly as he did former LHW champ Forrest Griffin. But, once age slowed him down, he couldn't play the same game against Chris Weidman. He was just a hundreth of a second slower, but that's the difference between highlight reel defense, and being the victim of a highlight reel KO.
Anderson was also a known casualty of USADA
I always wondered if Andy was.....say 32 instead of 38, if the clowning and matrix reflex stuff would have also worked against Weidman and he would have gotten another W.
Or if Weidman (and Rockhold, for that matter) was just plain better and it wouldn't have mattered how old Andy was.
And then we found out Andy was a doper, which made me reconsider his entire title reign. I'm sure some of the guys he beat were also dopers, but I don't think they all necessarily were.
Weidman doesn't make it out of the first round with a 32-year-old Silva, and I'm a big fan of Chris. That Silva that demolished Forrest would have ran through Weidman and Rockhold and Bisping, and maybe even DC, but that's a hard fight for any fighter ever.
I probably agree he beats Weidman. But do you think he takes out a prime Rockhold (providing Luke has his head on straight and takes him seriously, unlike what he did against Bisping the 2nd fight) with ease?
Rockhold is huge and extremely well rounded. I think that would be a great and close fight. Do you think there is a chance of that, or do you think 32 year old Andy easily beats Rockhold? And remember, we are talking about Andy version 2 for this fight (ie no PEDS this time).
I think Rockhold is the easier fight than Weidman condidering Chris' excellent MMA wrestling. Rockhold is a HW who somehow makes it to 185 for weigh ins. Rockhold is good at everything, but not particularly great in any one area. He loves the standup, and he loves throwing kicks. I just don't think he has the speed/finesse to deal with the version of Anderson Silva who was at his physical and skill peak. There would probably be a great back and forth, until the skill gap became apparent and Rockhold starts getting picked apart.
Cristiano Ronaldo is 32, the best player in the world, and just had what was probably his best season. Wayne Rooney is 31 and almost completely shot, sitting on Man U's bench, looking like he'd put up average numbers in the Scottish League.
Rooney and Ronaldo played together in their 20s. They were both world class players on the same team. Rooney lives like a regualr guy: gets drunk, eats crap, trains only with the team. CR7 is eating clean to stay at like 7% bodyfat year round, sleeping 9+ hours a night, deadlifting, squattting, pressing, and doing agility drills like a motherfucker before he gets to the practice ground.
Tom Brady won a Superbowl at 39 years old. Tom Brady has never had coffee in his life. He's on that alkaline diet that the Team Quest guys were doing 10 years ago. He's strict and regimented in every facet of his life to stay competitive in a young man's game.
Floyd Mayweather is 40, and still the best 154 and under boxer in the world. His only competiton would be 160lb champion: 35-year-old GGG...if Golovkin could make the weight. Floyd and GGG live and breathe boxing. Floyd is never not in shape.
Half of the p4p boxing list are old as fuck: GGG, Pac, Ward, Kovalev, Rogondeaux, Bradley. Only Canelo, Chocolatito and Lomochenko are in their 20s.
In fighting experience can trump youth
BruteDion - Bobby Lupo - BruteDion - Bobby Lupo - BruteDion - Bobby Lupo -
This is fascinating. None of those champions are really attributte based fighters. They're either very well rounded: Mighty Mouse, Stipe, Cormier, Woodley, or very good at the one thing they do: Conor and Joanna,
Guys like Silva, Vitor, GSP, Rumble, etc. rely on their physical attributes more than a mastery of any one area of the game.
IDK bout the that in terms of the guys you lised.
Silva is a master Muay Thai guy for mma. His mastery of striking is what cared him so long after his prime. As i said before, power is normally the last thing to go on a fighter. The first 2 things are reflexes and pure speed. His peak in thos areas were long ago. He would not still be fighting well today if he was not a master striker.
GSP was a great athlete but he was a great wrestler aswell.
I'm going to both agree and disagree about Silva. He's an elite strikier for MMA no question, and during his run of dominance he was a MT specialist with a BJJ BB
Anderson hasn't won a fight in 5 years. Against Leben and Franklin, Silva was the most dangerous man in the clinch. He was frighteningly accurate. Contrast with Silva getting uppercutted by Brunson last night in a clinch Anderson initiated. Anderson stopped being a Muay Thai master in the cage over a decade ago. He abandoned his clinch game for years.
Anderson was a reflex fighter like Roy Jones. It allowed him to do all that Matrix shit and clown guys as badly as he did former LHW champ Forrest Griffin. But, once age slowed him down, he couldn't play the same game against Chris Weidman. He was just a hundreth of a second slower, but that's the difference between highlight reel defense, and being the victim of a highlight reel KO.
Anderson was also a known casualty of USADA
I agree somewhat.
But you said he relied on physical attributes. So which is it? Does he rely on them or not?
My whole post was to say he didnt rely on them because he was a master striker aswell. Im not saying he didnt rely on physical skills. Fact is he had top levels of both. He was an amazing blend of Skill meets Talent. And when old age robbed him of his talent as reflexes, he now only has his skills in the stiking arts.
Your first post said he relyed on his physical talents. So which is it?
He was an attribute guy. He gets away with that clowning vs Weidman if he was 31 instead of 38.
The Silva that used Muay Thai so beautifully against Leben and Franklin abandoned that art when Affliction shirts were still popular. He flirted with boxing, TKD, and other TMA striking arts.
His speed, power, and reflexes allowed him to do that.
So his early success had nothing to do with him being amazing MT guy for mma?
It was all physical gifts? lol ok dude.
Thats why MT coaches were speaking high of him back in the day when he was walking through guys like Rich Franklin through Vitor.
If you are right that it was pure physical, then how come he lost before he was UFC champ? Did somehow over night his reflexes get better as he got older? Or was it that he started to perfect his style?
For some reason, and we can speculate as to why all day long, the 30-year-old Anderson Silva with all that Chute Boxe mileage was somehow 10x the fighter he was in Pride and Cage Rage against lesser fighters. He fought Leben and Franklin with a Muay Thai for MMA gameplan, and he massacared them in the most dominant perfomances. Then, he goes on to unify the UFC and Pride titles by submitting all time great Dan Henderson, and fucks Franklin's world up again. Apart from that weird Lutter fight mixed in there, Anderson looked perfect.
He almost completely abandons his MT game after the Franklin rematch, and gets obsessed with boxing, the idea of fighting Roy Jones, showboating, and TMA. The version of Silva who destroyed LHWs Griffin, Bonnar, and Irwin, did it with pure attributes. He was playing Roy Jones in the Forrest fight, and he pulled it off. He fucked around against Maia and Leites, kicked Vitor's face off, had that epic Chael fight.
Things were going great. He was beating Weidman up. He used the same boxing and clowning formula that worked against all those other guys...except, he was older, and slower, and Weidman was in his prime, and capitalized on Silva's mistake in showboating.
Anderson got away with all that bullshit when he was younger and his competition wasn't ready to hit him when he was doing that Ali/RJJ shit. He got old. His reflexes slipped, even Ali after the suspension, in his late 20s, stopped fighting like 22-year-old Ali.
I think that silva's "abandoning of his muay thai" wasn't a bad thing. Watch his pride fights. He fights like a crappy wanderlei marching foward and trying to sprawl. After leaving chute box and developing his own counter heavy style he became the badass that he was. And he wasn't "clowning" agasint chris. He was trying to draw chris into overextending rather than the safe fight that chris was fighting
flemingo - I think that silva's "abandoning of his muay thai" wasn't a bad thing. Watch his pride fights. He fights like a crappy wanderlei marching foward and trying to sprawl. After leaving chute box and developing his own counter heavy style he became the badass that he was. And he wasn't "clowning" agasint chris. He was trying to draw chris into overextending rather than the safe fight that chris was fighting
Anderson felt Chris out and thought he was fighting another clumsy ox like Griffin or Bonnar, and Chris was half gassed from nerves. Anderson thought he was trading punches with a human heavy bag. There's no immediate counter for Anderson with leans that dramatic. He would have to completely reset. He was playing games, and paid the price for it.
27-32 is probably the average physical + mental + experience peak the highest at the same time. After that, while you will gain experience, you deteriorate physically. Not sure my point is coming across correctly (english isn't my first language)