Why wasn't Vera's Takedown Defense Scored?

"I recognize the fact that Rua did have a few take down attempts during the course of the fight, However, Lyoto defended them all successfully, which counts as effective grappling in his favor, where as unsuccessful take down attempts are not scored at all."

- Cecil Peoples


So, I've been reading many Pro Randy threads and nobody seems to mention this. If Machida can win the Shogun fight by defending takedowns, why didn't Vera score any points for Takedown defense? Randy stalled because HE FAILED AT TAKING VERA DOWN. Randy should not have won the fight for clinching 3 whole rounds. Vera got takedowns, got mount, had harder strikes and he still lost. WTF is wrong with the judges.

 Because no matter what the rules and criteria are, when it comes down to it, every judge is just going to give the rounds to whichever fighter they felt won, regardless of the criteria. If put on the spot and forced to explain, they will try to fit the criteria to their decision rather than vice vera.



It is just the way it is. Any system that is any more subjective than strictly counting numbers (number of punches landed, number of successful takedowns, number of takedowns defended) is always going to come down to a purely subjective opinion of who did "better", no matter how you attempt to codify it. It's how it has always been in every sport with judges since the dawn of time.



The only way to avoid it is, like I said, to do away with judges and just add up the compubox numbers. But of course that doesn't tell the whole story, which is why I feel the solution is just to ensure you have knowledgeable judges and just give them carte blanche. Forget about rounds, just have each judge choose a winner at the end of the fight. The decisions would be no lamer than many are now, and I think would be better, because the judges wouldn't be shoehorned into rounds and rigid criteria that will never come close to taking everything into account.

 I personally don't think his TD defense scores highly because he never tried to damage randy while they were clinched. He was so afraid of the TD he just stood there defending it with no offense and was 50% of the blame for the fight going down the way it did.

the same reason you don't score points for slipping a jab.

Or you don't score points for a tackle.

Or you don't score points for stopping a goal.

Etc...etc...etc...

shmuckothemighty - the same reason you don't score points for slipping a jab.

Or you don't score points for a tackle.

Or you don't score points for stopping a goal.

Etc...etc...etc...

except that in the Shogun fight, as the OP points out, that's how Machida got the points to win.

Formulate Infinity -  I personally don't think his TD defense scores highly because he never tried to damage randy while they were clinched. He was so afraid of the TD he just stood there defending it with no offense and was 50% of the blame for the fight going down the way it did.



So what you're saying is that Vera should have attempted to do damage to Randy even though you, I and Vera knows that if he would have opened himself up, Couture would have gotten the takedown and put Brandon in an even worse spot.

sounds pretty dumb to me, Couture mounted an offense that Brandon negated taking zero damage, Brandon's offense caused some damage. Now Randy controlled Brandon for most of the fight, so in the judges eyes that night Control > Damage

sacredhate - 
shmuckothemighty - the same reason you don't score points for slipping a jab.

Or you don't score points for a tackle.

Or you don't score points for stopping a goal.

Etc...etc...etc...

except that in the Shogun fight, as the OP points out, that's how Machida got the points to win.



Which is stupid and cecil peoples should be banned for life from MMA.

orcus -  Because no matter what the rules and criteria are, when it comes down to it, every judge is just going to give the rounds to whichever fighter they felt won, regardless of the criteria. If put on the spot and forced to explain, they will try to fit the criteria to their decision rather than vice vera.

It is just the way it is. Any system that is any more subjective than strictly counting numbers (number of punches landed, number of successful takedowns, number of takedowns defended) is always going to come down to a purely subjective opinion of who did "better", no matter how you attempt to codify it. It's how it has always been in every sport with judges since the dawn of time.

The only way to avoid it is, like I said, to do away with judges and just add up the compubox numbers. But of course that doesn't tell the whole story, which is why I feel the solution is just to ensure you have knowledgeable judges and just give them carte blanche. Forget about rounds, just have each judge choose a winner at the end of the fight. The decisions would be no lamer than many are now, and I think would be better, because the judges wouldn't be shoehorned into rounds and rigid criteria that will never come close to taking everything into account.


Good post. Knowledgeable judges would be nice.

Formulate Infinity -  I personally don't think his TD defense scores highly because he never tried to damage randy while they were clinched. He was so afraid of the TD he just stood there defending it with no offense and was 50% of the blame for the fight going down the way it did.


You're scoring Vera's Clinch Game and not his TD. Takdown Defense is either successful or not. Vera defended Randy's takedowns several times which should have counted as effective grappling but the judges didn't score it.

sleepernoob - 
"I recognize the fact that Rua did have a few take down attempts during the course of the fight, However, Lyoto defended them all successfully, which counts as effective grappling in his favor, where as unsuccessful take down attempts are not scored at all."

- Cecil Peoples


So, I've been reading many Pro Randy threads and nobody seems to mention this. If Machida can win the Shogun fight by defending takedowns, why didn't Vera score any points for Takedown defense? Randy stalled because HE FAILED AT TAKING VERA DOWN. Randy should not have won the fight for clinching 3 whole rounds. Vera got takedowns, got mount, had harder strikes and he still lost. WTF is wrong with the judges.


Come on if it went to the judges everyone knew that Randy would get the decision. Randy's probably the #1 PPV guy in the UFC right now with Chuck and Lesnar out not to mention being a Legend.

If Randy had secured a takedown that would have been used as justification for winning a close round.

Vera had to get the submission or KO to win that fight. It was his bad that he couldn't get it done. Hopefully he won't sulk about it and let it ruin his career.

Last I checked "takedown defense" and defense in general was not part of the judging criteria.  Simple as that.

Boldar - Last I checked "takedown defense" and defense in general was not part of the judging criteria.  Simple as that.


You should check again, since you're wrong.

"J. Octagon Control
1. The fighter who is dictating the pace, place and position of the fight.
2. A striker who fends off a grappler's takedown attempt to remain standing and effectively strike is octagon control.
3. A grappler who can takedown an effective standing striker to ground fight is octagon control.
4. The fighter on the ground who creates submission, mount or clean striking opportunities"

takedown defense only matters if you escape the takedown i.e. if someone clinches with you and you don't get taken down but remain in the clinch as that person continually tries to take you down, that's a wash IMO.

You must stop the entire takedown and get yourself into the position you desire to be in, in order to be counted as dictating action (which is really the only value of a takedown). Being pushed against the cage, yet not getting taken down should not be considered an advantage to either fighter. At that point inside striking is what you look to in order to score the fight.

@ jbapk, Thank you. So many people don't even know the scoring criteria. The UFC should do a quick overview before each fight.

offense > defense

jbapk - 
Boldar - Last I checked "takedown defense" and defense in general was not part of the judging criteria.  Simple as that.


You should check again, since you're wrong.

"J. Octagon Control
1. The fighter who is dictating the pace, place and position of the fight.
2. A striker who fends off a grappler's takedown attempt to remain standing and effectively strike is octagon control.
3. A grappler who can takedown an effective standing striker to ground fight is octagon control.
4. The fighter on the ground who creates submission, mount or clean striking opportunities"


but just because vera didnt get taken down means he was showing "octagon control."

Wasa-B - offense > defense


Unless you are Machida.

Wasa-B - 
jbapk - 
Boldar - Last I checked "takedown defense" and defense in general was not part of the judging criteria.  Simple as that.


You should check again, since you're wrong.

"J. Octagon Control
1. The fighter who is dictating the pace, place and position of the fight.
2. A striker who fends off a grappler's takedown attempt to remain standing and effectively strike is octagon control.
3. A grappler who can takedown an effective standing striker to ground fight is octagon control.
4. The fighter on the ground who creates submission, mount or clean striking opportunities"


but just because vera didnt get taken down means he was showing "octagon control."


Read Cecil's quote in the OP. He is controlling the fight via Takedown Defense.

Wasa-B - 
jbapk - 
Boldar - Last I checked "takedown defense" and defense in general was not part of the judging criteria.  Simple as that.


You should check again, since you're wrong.

"J. Octagon Control
1. The fighter who is dictating the pace, place and position of the fight.
2. A striker who fends off a grappler's takedown attempt to remain standing and effectively strike is octagon control.
3. A grappler who can takedown an effective standing striker to ground fight is octagon control.
4. The fighter on the ground who creates submission, mount or clean striking opportunities"


but just because vera didnt get taken down means he was showing "octagon control."


"2. A striker who fends off a grappler's takedown attempt to remain standing and effectively strike is octagon control."

So at best octagon control was a was, and Vera wins effective striking and grappling....

What, so now this idiocy spouted by Cecil is the new judging standard?