I've been thinking alot about this lately. I tend to have a hard time with "wiry" people. I can hold my own with people that are heavier then me. If anything I usually feel like I have the upper hand in those situations.
Yet people that are "wiry", even if they are my same weight, are the biggest pain in the ass for me. So I've been thinking about that term and what exactly defines it. What I think defines it are a couple of things.
They have fast reflexes, a lot like a wrestler. Wrestler also tend to be "wiry"
They dont commit to something. For instance if they are trying to pass and feel you defending or getting the upper hand they will back away immediately instead of defending your offense.
This definition is more for me, but I feel that they are difficult to submit.
That I think defines them. Any feedback would be great.
What I was thinking in dealing with these people is basically faking them out more. With heavier guys I dont have to fake them out that much because Im usually much faster. Yet with wiry folks Im thinking more push&pulling in one direction to get them to defend then go straight to offense should help deal with them better. What do you guys think?
we have a guy in our academy like this, lucky for me he is below my level. he is very hard to submit though. i found that chokes and straight armbars have worked best for me. i rarely am able to finish a shoulder lock or footlock on him, and some gi chokes are tough too.
i like to work on my positioning with these types, work on going slow and staying in control. since these types are very hard to control and usually have very good guard i like to work my passing and top game.
i like to work on my positioning with these types, work on going slow and staying in control. since these types are very hard to control and usually have very good guard i like to work my passing and top game.
Yeah that top game has to be tight. If I get off my game for a second I get put back into half-guard.
Very frustrating. I'm a flexible, somewhat wiry guy, though I've gotten a little fat in recent years hahaha, and people tell me that I'm frustrating.
But I know a blue and purple belt who are tall (6'5" and 6"2) leaner than me, more 'wiry', maybe the same flexibility and they are such a pain in the ass.
I like to stay heavy/crush them as much as I can and limit their motion. I find that they are very good in motion so I go for positional dominance and basic under passes a lot on them, making sure to keep things slow and heavy.
The magic bullet if you want to call it that is persistance. Perhaps the key isn't that they're (wiry) it's that they can keep a certain pace longer than guys who prefer to play a slower tighter game. The person trying the slower tighter game many times will try something - spend energy - then back off and try again wasting their energy; whereas the best thing is to combine strategies and keep the pressure on the guy until you pass/submit/sweep etc.
I just keep going forward and I find that although they've got great escapes, are hard to submit and have that good instinct where they begin the escape BEFORE you've solidified your position.... I can still eventually impose my game.
The problem occurs when you keep trying to do something in a start/stop motion instead of keeping consistent yourself. A slow positional game will nullify the wiry guy as long as you're persistent and don't back off.
This is of course assuming similar skill/weight etc.
I think this is pretty common. The have less "Meat" to get in the Way of maneuvering. Less Meat means less Friction. When it comes to these Guys I use more Strenf and apply my Weight more than I would.
Anyhow, all this talk of Meat and Friction is getting me aroused. I'm off to the OG!
robert bently said it much better than me. I like to stay heavy on them but probably the bigger key is persistance.... So they defend well and escape good, that's okay, keep them defending and eventually you'll do okay.
Oh - and here's one of my favorite things to pull off of really wiry guys with good cardio.
I try to get into a particularly stable position where I can really control them BEFORE a move is completed and then rest there. There are some positions where it takes almost NO energy to hold but a lot of energy/discomfort etc for them to even be there.
My favorite is when I'm setting up the leg on shoulder pass and I have been able to do two things:
1) get a very good grip on their collar whilst maintaining good posture.
2) pin their other leg to the ground under my shin.
At this stage I could just pass his guard, but I prefer to maintain control for a bit forcing a nasty "splits" position on him and take a breather. I don't need to pass right away - so while he's gasping and having his hips separated I'll chill out a bit... then I'll pass (and he'll be greatful!)
Sometimes they'll try to escape this situation but I've found it takes an enormous amount of energy on their part to get anything going at all, and even if they do you just pass to side control.
At a Tourney once I went against a Gumby. One of those Kendall Grove Types. I worked a TWL and his Arm went WAY past what's normal. I look down at his Face expecting writhing and Tablespoon of Anguish and he looked like he was going to take a Nap.
Later I tried a DWL and it was like trying to submit a LONG, wet Noodle. There was just a HUGE Gap. In the Middle of the Match I asked him if he did Yoga and he calmly replies "Nah."
I have encountered "wiry" fighters and they seem to fight like a "tiger" in addition to amazing strength. Not overpowering strength but more resistance type strength, that I think is built naturally into their tendons/ligaments/ makeup . And I try to do what has been suggested and that is focus on trying to get a dominant position though very difficult. No use in trying anything else they will burn your energy out.
I find if you're patient the submissions will come as well - just not as fast. I generally don't risk as much and focus on maintaining maximum pressure so that their cardio is sapped more. For instance, once I have mount I'll threaten various submissions but I'm more looking for them to try to escape by shrimping - when they shrimp I'll try to trap their arm across their upper chest by keeping my chest tight and then I'll try to grab their wrist from the other side of their head.
You need to have a very well timed "switch" reaction when they shrimp so that you go from a somewhat loose mount position (because you're attempting to loosen them up in other ways) to one where you've got your heal tight to their abdomen, your other knee tight on their back, and your weight and chest down on their shoulder/arm.
The whole process takes a while, but it seems to work for me.
Rayleigh, I am just a normal person without any superior skills to speak of. More like the tortise who puts all his energy in just getting "there" than the hare who gets "there" naturally.