women's self defense

gichoke,

I have nothing more to say to you. When asked for evidence you point out "one time this study you can't remember" and "common sense". You then refuse to support your own opinions as this is a "public" forum. Yet you insist on chapter and verse from an individual twice appointed to the President's Advisory Board to the US Department of Justice and published author whose books are widely available. I suppose it best we agree to disagree.

Best to you and goodnight,

Paul

why can't women develope confidence by learning techniques that work as easly as hyped bull shit

Exactly.Mrchapple..EXACTLY.Now paul, dont get all huffy on me just cause you are just as bad at citing data and proof as I am.Look, I just offered my opinion.AS EVERY ONE OF US HAS.And you go acting like I am on trial.I never stated that my info came from the word of god.It is just common sensde to me, if it isnt to you, I can accept that.
But every time I see threads like this I see lots of self proclaimed self defense experts ripping MMA all the while listening to charlatans who dont know jack about fighting say things like "gross motor skills" and "hit him where he is vulnerable".... well DUH.All this newfangled CGC self defense shit going around these days has zero depth, it is just the same crap that was taught in karate classes 40 years ago , but the selling angle is a bit switched, now we got desert storm vets and "ex bouncers" telling us to knee the groin and palm heel the face.If you wanna know about fighting go find a fighter, if you dont wanna get raped learn how to fight.Self defense tricks are bullshit.And telling a woman that she can just get nasty and beat a rapist is dangerous and nonsensical.As for your "published author"... I dont give a rats ass.Ive read 100 books on fighting and 99% are bullshit.And he was appointed to some council? Yeah, well so was Billy Blanks.Look, I got nothing against De Becker, he masy be a genius,but if you are gonna ask me to support all my opinions in a simple conversation on a forum, then you better get better info on your sources, cause "he wrote a book" doesnt mean much to some of us.

gichoke,

Unless you yourself are a rapist how is it that you know so well what goes on in the mind of one?

The reality is that most rapists are average looking guys, many married with normal enough looking lives. Although they ofcourse come in all colors shapes and sizes Most are in the 5'-8" 160 lbs range. You can not look at someone and know that he is a rapist. Most attackers follow a very well documented pattern of attack. They select a victim, attempt to create a postion of advantage where they can have privacy and controll, and then they attempt to do what ever it is they are planning to do. There is one more important component...They do not wish to get caught. With this in mind victims are selected that appear to be the least aware and potentially resistant.

The Boston strangler one of the worlds most notorious and successful serial rapists and murderers said, when caught, that if anyone resisted in any way, he fled.

In an earlier thread you stated something about it being too late in a date rape situation when the women finds the guy on top of her. first this is date rape. He was being social at least at first. He wasnt beating the shit out of her in a dark alley. I hate to tell you this but in a sexual assault many vulnerable targets present themselves. If the guy really wants to get what he came for he can't do it wearing a cup and holding mount. Remember, we are not talking about wether a bigger stronger person can beat a smaller weaker person in a fight. We are talking about womens self defense. Anything that creates increased self confidense and awareness will serve to lesson the chance that an individual will get selectd in the first place. There are literally thousands of documented cases of women with no self defense training or MA backround fighting back against attackers and winning. It will always be that way. Just talk to any police officer about the statistics of women who comply vs women who resist. If you truly want to speak from a place of well rounded information, why not invetigate a bit. Otherwise it's just your opininon.

Like you I am not going to site my resources. If you really feel passionate about learning something on this subject I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are intelligent enough to find the data that you seek. You are ofcourse entitled to your opinion and to state those feelings openly on a public forum. But it is MHO that you do not know what you are talking about. And that your attitude is negative towards women which defeats the entire nature of this thread.

Peace.
Taku.

Thanks Nowaydo...I appreciate it.

I know what you mean...but I sometimes take the time anyway.

Taku.

I see nothing about studies in there.The fact that the mans own webpage states that he is widely regarded as a leading expert is meaningless.
Sovann, I dont think that a weaker person should want to transform into a savage animal in a fight.A weaker person has to be smart to win, movies aside.I have known rapists, I dont think you can shock them with a headbutt or a bite as easily as some of you seem to think.They pick people that are not strong enough to do them much damage, and if they are anything like me then they generally only notice the bumps and bruises after the fight is over.

gichoke,

You requested:

>Now to you... QUOTE THIS ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE, explain who DeBecker is, his qualifications, the studies he cites (please also provide data on these studies and on those that performed them and their motives).I thank you



You can read for yourself. Mr. De Becker's home page is http://www.gavindebecker.com/ His personal qualifications are listed at http://www.gavindebecker.com/bios-gavin.htm

His books, The Gift of Fear, et al are widely available.

Here's a brief summary (from the later web page):

Gavin de Becker is widely regarded as our nation's leading expert on the prediction and management of violence. He is the best-selling author of THE GIFT OF FEAR, PROTECTING THE GIFT, and FEAR LESS. His work has earned him three Presidential appointments and a position on a congressional committee. He was twice appointed to the President's Advisory Board at the U.S. Department of Justice, and was a principal advisor on the federal research project into mentally ill people who stalk public figures. He served two years on the Governor's Advisory Board at the California Department of Mental Health. He is currently co-chair of the Domestic Violence Council Advisory Board.

Mr. de Becker is a Senior Fellow at the UCLA School of Public Policy.



I'm not claiming Mr. de Becker is always correct, but given a cursory evaluation of his material and qualifications I feel it would be a grave mistake to dismiss it out of hand.

Regards,

Paul

I feel compelled to ask a few questions:

gichoke asserts:

>First off teaching someone to be aggressive is bunk,our personality type is written in our genetics and shaped in our early childhood, timid people are always timid.YOU CANNOT CHANGE YOUR BASE PERSONALITY TYPE SIGNIFICANTLY.

My question is:
What is the evidence for this statement?

again, from gichoke:

>Secondly telling a woman to be viscious toward an attacking rapist is pretty weak, she is a soccer mom, he is a savage animal that has probably been to prison, been beaten and been raped himself, she will never be more viscious than him,.....

My comment and question:
It appears that a number of assumptions are being stated as fact here. What is the personality type of an "attacking rapist"? What is the likelyhood that the "attacking rapist" has been "beaten and raped himself"? Where is the evidence for these assertions?

In conclusion from gichoke:

>And think about this... in the case of daterape AND stranger rape the women will generally not know that she is an intended victim until his weight is already on top of her.

My question:
Again, the evidence for this is? Anecedotally, there a strong body of evidence that people ARE aware that bad things are going to happen. (Gavin DeBecker's Gift of Fear makes a strong argument that this is indeed the case.)

Regards,

Paul

As for # 1 "evidence".I can only tell you that there was a time when I studied data taken from studies on identical twins that were raised seperatly.And this data showed a profound correlation between genetics and such attributes, as inclination toward religion, energy level, political leanings, temper etc etc etc.The correlation was startling.I cannot cite the publications which I studied (it was some time ago) but am sure you could find such material in an extensive public library.
Secondly, my personality profile of a likely rapist comes from common sense.Clearly someone that is likely to hurt others will (on average) have less empathy for other people than the average person at large.And therefore have less hang-ups about hurting others.This truth is self-evident.
As for having been raped or beaten himself.I did not cite my sources as this is a public forum, meaning a place to have conversation.I am not in a court of law or writting the bibiography of a book on the subject.I offered opinions.AS HAS EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD.I did not , nor shall I support them, you are free to ignore my opinions as you choose.Now to you...
QUOTE THIS ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE, explain who DeBecker is, his qualifications, the studies he cites (please also provide data on these studies and on those that performed them and their motives).I thank you.

"Secondly telling a woman to be viscious toward an attacking rapist is pretty weak, she is a soccer mom, he is a savage animal that has probably been to
prison, been beaten and been raped himself, she will never be more viscious than him"

If it sinks in that her life is at stake or better yet her kids' are at stake, that soccer mom *can* get vicious enough to survive. She can turn into a "savage animal", biting clawing spitting snarling. Question is *will* she? What will trigger that?

Paul,

You are officially, my hero.

-Paul "its a Paul thing, you wouldn't understand" Sharp

www.straightblastgymillinois.com

First off teaching someone to be aggressive is bunk,our personality type is written in our genetics and shaped in our early childhood, timid people are always timid.YOU CANNOT CHANGE YOUR BASE PERSONALITY TYPE SIGNIFICANTLY.Secondly telling a woman to be viscious toward an attacking rapist is pretty weak, she is a soccer mom, he is a savage animal that has probably been to prison, been beaten and been raped himself, she will never be more viscious than him, if it becomes a contest of biting and gouging she will lose.You cannot learn to out-dirty fight a man that lacks empathy in a self defense course.
She has one advantage, she has souggt out training, and therefore is probably smarter and more disciplined than him.Her best bet is to know something he doesnt know.And that is where groundfighting comes in, striking is intuitive and more reliant on strength, and whats more is that it happens so fast that it is hard to outthink someone.And think about this... in the case of daterape AND stranger rape the women will generally not know that she is an intended victim until his weight is already on top of her.If she wants to survive she should spend alot of time learning te guard position.If a world class female kickboxer started a fight with a man lying on her she would probably lose and wind up raped.
Trying to turn a typical woman into a warrior is ridiculous.Teaching her how to break a mans arm seems alot easier.
YES MMA IS NOT LIKE A RAPE SITUATION.But palm heeling some guy wearing a padded trashcan on his head is a helluva lot less like a rape situation.

Short of very hard training, the only good shot a woman has is a weapon.Ordinary people just arent tough enough to stand up to a violent attack, least of all a woman that was chosen because she looked like an easy mark.When average people are in my vale tudo class they get hyper and crumble immiediatly cause they arent prepared for the adrenaline rush and they havent the mental strength to persevere through the pain.I cant really figure out why people think you can become able at selfdefense in a short course.You don't learn other specialized skills that way.You can't train to play the guitar two nights a week for a couple months then go join a band.

So to summarize, it's far more important to give women a aggressive mindset and aviodance strategies then techniques?

"I am not in the least bit intimidated" Taku
Good for you,bro!
Yeah, I did not provide evidence or credentials.Then I coutered by asking my atttackers for there's.Co-incidence? I think not.
And yes, a 135# soccer mom COULD beat a 250# rapist lying on her with an eyegouge, stranger things have happened (though none come to mind).But why go to a selfdefense class to learn how to eyegouge? First off all, it is obvious.Secondly it cannot be practiced with a very high simulation of reality.Sure you can poke a guy wearing goggles, but how do we know it he is gonna be neutralized? As for what techniques are mostt effective? Ones that the rapist wont know.Like triangle choke, collar chokes, armbars, heelhooks, things that one needs to be TAUGHT, not just common sense thiings like biting.Obviously she is gonna be scatching and biting, but she needs to know how to sweep him off her and how to get him with a smart move that he doesnt know.And most of all, if she doesnt spar hard she wont be tough enough to beat many rapists even if she has the techniques down.If you cant pull it off in randori, you will almost certainly fail when in a real selfdefense situation.I realise that the moves im suggesting are hard to learn and that it cant be done in a short self defense course, which is why I dont think these course have significant value.

gichoke,

Evidently I do have something more to say.

You stated that "Then I coutered (sic) by asking my atttackers (sic) for there's."

With all due respect, you weren't attacked. You made statements which were contrary to everything else in the thread up until that point. I was asking for evidence as to how you came to those conclusions. I wasn't attacking you. I wasn't even saying you were wrong. I was trying to understand your position when it was counter to a lot of what others have mentioned.

I resent the implication that I attacked you, and honestly feel I did no such thing. If you disagree, please explain why. I'd like to move past this and return this thread to a more positive focus, particulary training methods and topics that can help our wives, girlfriends, moms, sisters, friends, etc... protect themselves from real world rape and assault.

Regards,

Paul

To paraphrase Tony Blauer: "there are more people with no martial arts training who have successfully defended themselves than there are martial artists who have had to use what they know."

Now, I don't have the statistics to back up this statement, but "common sense" tells me that it is probably true :-). If this is the case, then these potential victims must have done SOMETHING to convince their attackers that there were greener pastures elsewhere.

I would venture to guess that few to none of these people managed to pull off a triangle or an arm bar against their attacker, yet managed to escape nonetheless. However, I could be wrong...I often am.

I shall ignore the irrelevant stuff and stick with content.
I do not see vale tudo and rape as the same, they are far from it.But as I earlier stated, surely hard vt type sparring is a closer simulation of a rape scenario than a very tightly controlled self defense sequence.Wouldnt you all agree? And I'm not sure alot of the suspitions about the intent and style of the common rapist is accurate.I have often heard that many, if not MOST stranger rapes are very brutal, I think punches and a general beatdown are rather typical.