OP, was the omission of Fedor deliberate?
Tad Ghostal - Kerr probably would have been better clean. He'd be healthier at least.
Healthier for sure...as dominant or effective ?
No.
armbarseverywhere - There was this badass Russian guy.. Fedor.
I'm not convinced Fedor wasn't juicing in his RINGS and PRIDE days when he was jacked. he's Russian. They're notorious juicers from Olympics to combat sports.
Fedor certainly looked much more deflated and skinny fat later in his career.
orcus -
Nog weighed just 225 in the Pride HW GP, so he was much leaner than he was before or has been since.
Doesn't mean he wasn't running anything in his system. He came from the Brazilian Top team after all.
SKARHEAD -armbarseverywhere - There was this badass Russian guy.. Fedor.
I'm not convinced Fedor wasn't juicing in his RINGS and PRIDE days when he was jacked. he's Russian. They're notorious juicers from Olympics to combat sports.
Fedor certainly looked much more deflated and skinny fat later in his career.
I think it would be fair to give Fedor the benefit of the doubt. In his recent years, he is quite obviously passed his physical prime. it would be unnatural to expect his body to hold up and look the same as he ages. I cant say the same for many fighters that are still around or that fought into their 30's and 40's in some cases.
Tiger
Armstrong
Bonds
I'll stop there
Tiresias -
You are asking people with sentimental attachment to certain athletes/sport history if they would prefer if things had been different; but if things had been different, then we would have sentimental attachments to different athletes/history, and so people would be greatly offended in rejecting the idea of having had some steroid users replace them.
Who would have been in their place as champions if the juiced legends weren't there ?
The guys that they beat ? Errrr, that's lame.
The juiced fighters were bigger, stronger, faster, more explosive, more confident, and more agressive...The fights and spectacle that we saw would NOT have been reproduced under juice free conditions. MMA history would look alot more like some lame, flat, slower TUF for TV style fights. The shit we've seen is superhuman and quite special by human standards.
So you take all the superhuiman legends off the board and replace them w/ the sliower, weaker, less explosive, agressive fighters that got beaten by the legends...yeah, that sounds lame and a well step below in entertainment quality.
Like being forced to watch stop motion black and white King Kong movies after seeing Jurrasic park...cool, but lame in comparison to the high level shit we've seen.
We would love the sport because we wouldn't know any better...but with everything toned down a serious notch we probably wouldn't have loved it as much seeing as it would have been simply less interesting and entertaining...Many of us would have moved onto something else.
It's not just sentimental attatchments to fighters...it's the quality of the action. Overall, it cannot be better viewing/entertainment quality than the enhanced version we've seen.
bellatroll -IGOR!!!! 5 foot 8 no roids and lots of KOs true fighter
Again, not convinved the 230lb built/fat Igor wasn't juicing either...and he and fedor are my two favorite fighters ever. Just being realistic.
HELWIG -
"theres a pic in grappling mag in an 04 monthly issue that has Fedor and Big Nog trading blows, Nog was RIPPED to the gills in this pic. Everyone I showed it too said Holy Shit. Either Nog workd out with weights HARDCORE in Pride or he was on somethin. NO DOUBT IN MY MIND AFTER SEEING THAT PIC!"
Youre talking about Nog/Fedor II where Nog has 6 straight months to prepare and got on a serious weight training regime. Dropped weight and looked super fast and fluid on the ground.
He didnt come back in that kind of shape EVER again after the No Contest happened.
He overdid it and came in way too light IMO.
After getting ragdolled and stomped in the 1st fight...Nog vowed to put on mucsle to come in bigger,heavier, and stronger to rematch Fedor....Instead he came in lighter than ever...and fedor tossed him worse than ever.
Actually I think that was fight # 3
DirtyLickinsBrah -The main prob with roiding is we'll never truly kno, and their rep is tarnished because of it, and rightfully so.
How is their rep tarnished ? different era and landscape...and EVERYONE was on some shit back in the day. And if you came from or fought in Brazil or japan it isn't even illegal....and is actually encouraged. They did nothing wrong. That's just the way the sport was.
i dont think many of the guys coleman beat could stop his takedowns/holddowns even if he was clean
orcus -
OP, was the omission of Fedor deliberate?
Fedor and Igor are not omitted from this...especially considering the era and landscape at the time. They would have been dumb not to unless they really are that gifted.Anything is possible behind closed doors. Royce got popped...that says it all. Anderson, Roy Nelson, and Honda could all be juicing for all we know (although I am not accusing them, just making a point).
boxy - Dan Henderson would've retired 5-6 years ago without juicing.
And that sucks...keep the legends/stars around as long as possible IMO...They still won't be around for ever...it will be over soon for all of them, so let's squeeze out a few more years. They and we deserve it...and honestly, the new crop of fabricated TUF "stars" are poor replacements overall.
in_different -SKARHEAD -armbarseverywhere - There was this badass Russian guy.. Fedor.
I'm not convinced Fedor wasn't juicing in his RINGS and PRIDE days when he was jacked. he's Russian. They're notorious juicers from Olympics to combat sports.
Fedor certainly looked much more deflated and skinny fat later in his career.
I think it would be fair to give Fedor the benefit of the doubt. In his recent years, he is quite obviously passed his physical prime. it would be unnatural to expect his body to hold up and look the same as he ages. I cant say the same for many fighters that are still around or that fought into their 30's and 40's in some cases.
Age isn't a reason for him to deteriorate THAT much in such a short time...Dude was only in his early to mid 30's when he lost all that muscle . If you workout you can certainly keep every bit of muscle well into your 40's...However he does get the benefit of the doubt and maybe he simply abandoned all weight training like he claims and did only calistenics...That's possible. I'm just not naive enough to believe him never juicing is out of the question.
ranier wolfcastle -
i dont think many of the guys coleman beat could stop his takedowns/holddowns even if he was clean
I disagree...Coleman would have been MUCH smaller, lighter, and weaker.His ground control and ground and pound would have been weaker, flat out. Even juiced out he still had takedowns stuffed by Mo Smith, Pete Williams, Pedro rizzo, and Cro Cop.
ALL those guys would have finished Coleman and the ones that did would have done it faster.
SKARHEAD -orcus -
OP, was the omission of Fedor deliberate?
Fedor and Igor are not omitted from this...especially considering the era and landscape at the time. They would have been dumb not to unless they really are that gifted.Anything is possible behind closed doors. Royce got popped...that says it all. Anderson, Roy Nelson, and Honda could all be juicing for all we know (although I am not accusing them, just making a point).
I agree.
Wand is clearly not juicing now, he's completely washed up with a weakened chin, and he can still beat top 10 fighters like Bisping and Stann. What makes you think in his prime he couldn't have been a top fighter? He was considered one of the best prospects even when he was in the UFC before going to Pride, and I really doubt he was juicing then.
Kerr was pretty much all roids+pain pills...there really wasn't much more to him than that. So he definitely would not have been a top fighter without those things. He absolutely needed both, the roids to get big+roid rage and the pain pills to give him confidence and be a psychological crutch. Dude was terrified to fight.
Coleman...not sure. He was very athletic with a monster double anyway. But it's arguable what he would have been without roids. He wasn't really a top fighter for a prolonged length of time anyway, and was always one-dimensional.
SKARHEAD -armbarseverywhere - There was this badass Russian guy.. Fedor.
I'm not convinced Fedor wasn't juicing in his RINGS and PRIDE days when he was jacked. he's Russian. They're notorious juicers from Olympics to combat sports.
Fedor certainly looked much more deflated and skinny fat later in his career.
You know you can't judge that shit on appearance itself. Don't go taking clean fighters under your wing under the 'guise of "we don't know that they didn't do steroids."
DaemonDragon - Wand is clearly not juicing now, he's completely washed up with a weakened chin, and he can still beat top 10 fighters like Bisping and Stann. What makes you think in his prime he couldn't have been a top fighter? He was considered one of the best prospects even when he was in the UFC before going to Pride, and I really doubt he was juicing then.
Kerr was pretty much all roids+pain pills...there really wasn't much more to him than that. So he definitely would not have been a top fighter without those things. He absolutely needed both, the roids to get big+roid rage and the pain pills to give him confidence and be a psychological crutch. Dude was terrified to fight.
Coleman...not sure. He was very athletic with a monster double anyway. But it's arguable what he would have been without roids. He wasn't really a top fighter for a prolonged length of time anyway, and was always one-dimensional.
That last fight against Stann? Wand "clearly not juicing" is extremely debatable. Not all juice makes you blow up in size like he was in pride ie Vitor.
SKARHEAD -ranier wolfcastle -
i dont think many of the guys coleman beat could stop his takedowns/holddowns even if he was clean
I disagree...Coleman would have been MUCH smaller, lighter, and weaker.His ground control and ground and pound would have been weaker, flat out. Even juiced out he still had takedowns stuffed by Mo Smith, Pete Williams, Pedro rizzo, and Cro Cop.
ALL those guys would have finished Coleman and the ones that did would have done it faster.
in his prime his stuffed takedowns came when he was gassed. i think he'd have better cardio without all the extra roid muscle to carry.
btw do the lance armstrong epo stuff cure mma fighters cardio problems?