I've seen some threads that sometimes try to list high percentage wrestling moves that would work in MMA. I would also like to see your list of high percentage wrestling for MMA. But first of all, what I would like more to see are wrestling moves (ranked?) that don't stand a good chance or should not be done in MMA on concrete floor (basically self-defense against a trained opponent). In my reading, a few moves that are are better suited for wrestling and be left out of MMA on concrete are fireman's carry and high crotch? (The less I train Hi-C the more I can train my double leg?) Your input is greatly appreciated.
The high crotch single is a great takedown. No reason
not to practice it. Fireman's carry might not be so
useful in an NHB match. But all in all, the more moves you know, the better. Your opponent might know the fireman's carry and then you better know it and how
to counter it.
Hmmm. There are wrestlers so skilled at doing the fireman's carry and do it so fast and powerful that they don't expose themself to danger against strikes (or concrete) because they are in control and their opponent will be off balance. I think that's the key point for any technique to work, in any situation - put your opponent off balance and his ability to counter is close to none.
HSFolk, I don't know if there is a way to "rank" the best wrestling moves - either for wrestling, or MMA, or solely for "street", or whatever. Certainly, there are good ones and bad ones (with some in-between). But so much of it depends on the individual. Some techniques seem to work well for some people, some don't.
Some things you may want to work on for "street" stuff is staying off your knees, obviously - things like pummeling/handfighting skills, ducks, snatch singles, knee picks, snap downs, front headlocks, working russians, etc. That's a quick list that is A) by no means exhaustive, B) in no particular order, and C) strictly my opinion - I'm sure many people could intelligently debate against that quick list.
By the way, I'm not sure what the difference (regarding street cross-over value) between a High-C and a double is. The mechanics of each are essentially identical. In fact, one of the best finishes from a High-C is a simple change-off to a double. So I'm not sure I'd bother making too much of a distinction between the two (in THIS context).
I would think if your in a street self defense situation and you can get the opportunity to do a high crotch (don't forget to take advantage of an opportunity to strike), consider the closest most vulnerable target during that move (the groin)... I wouldn't rule it out and it would set up the swith off to double great!
Thanks for the tips. I just picked high crotch cause I thought that's what Tito said in his takedown underhook video. He was outlining it and said it was geared more for wrestlers? Maybe I misunderstood. I was thinking two on one, arm drags won't be good. They'll punch you with the other hand? Russian? Habit of keeping head up when they have your back (expose to chokes)? Never wanting to go on back (obvious pin). But I guess stuff like that since I'm not that knowledgeable anyway. I don't want to train my two on one when I could be training my double legs. I guess something to that effect. Also thanks for the list Mr. Chip and also to everyone for their's.
Interesting. I wonder why Tito said that High-C's are more geared for wrestling and hence, less useful in MMA? Note: I'm not saying he's wrong, the guy obviously knows a hell of a lot more about fighting in a cage than I do, lol. I'm just curious.
Now that I think of it, I could swear I've seen him hit High-C's/head outside singles in UFC before. I'm pretty sure I've also seen Sakuraba (and some others too) hit a few nice High-C's as well. Perhaps they didn't really intend to go for those High-C's, and it's just what became available during a flurry? *shrug* Who knows?
But I'm not sure if I would practice the "classic" wrestling double or high-C too much if my main focus was the street. I'd be too leery of hitting my knee on the concrete. Not fun.
*Disclaimer: I make ZERO claim to be a 'street' expert. So take the above paragraph with a grain of salt.
I take issue with the not working on two on ones, though (I assume you're talking about the Russian two-on-one, right?). Russians are great, IMO.
I think it might be something about the guy standing might catch the arm (that's not going in between the legs) and a rain of elbows? i forget. risky? so two on one is ok even with punches? thanks chip
Chip, Jiu Jitsu guys learn a different high crotch,
which is more like a double. I think that might be
the source of this confusion. I reckon a (wrestling) high crotch would be excellent for the street. My
coach used to do one where he just leaned forward and did the one, two, three thing very, very quickly.
also, even if you do go down on your knee (like
I and other not advanced wrestlers do), the knee doesn't hit the ground very hard. A nice, low High crotch takes you out of the line of fire (the punches)
and it's a very effectiv takedown in a streetfight because you can remain standing while the opponent
falls down (away from you) which gives you time to run
if you need to. Only problem is that it's fairly high
skill and the shoot needs quite a bit of commitment,
so you don't want to screw up.
Obviously, grapplers (wrestlers included) should be concerned about strikes when using their techniques against a potentially striking opponent, such as in an MMA or a streetfighting scenario. This generally means covering up and/or keeping their head tight against their opponent's body and blocking kicks with the shin, knees with their hands (usually) and/or keeping distance.
However, I stand by my previous argument that if any particular technique is executed well and with the correct timing, you'll have your opponent offbalanced enough so that you can finish the move and he won't be able to strike you. I would stay away from any move that you can't do against a resisting opponent, like the ones taught in akido, japanese judo etc. But that's my personal opinion.
I Agree with the last post. Good technique goes a
long way. It's just not that easy to hit somebody
during a takedown. Often, you just make it that much
easier for him to take you down. Spar it out, if
you punch your way in to a takedown, your opponent
won't have time to punch you. He either punchs and
goes down hard or counters the takedown. It's hard
to do both.
I got to this one late.
The thing with high-c's is that it offers a very easy guillotine (choke). when the head is on the inside, it's more difficult to get the choke. If you shoot a double with your far arm wrapiing his waist, it's also very difficult for someone to choke you.
In wrestling, we don't have to worry about chokes, so a high-c is fine there.
for the street, i'd tay away from anything low (since most people are standing upright anyways). If you shoot, you'd hope to be able to drop them to the ground while you remain up, so shoot tothe hips, barsigar, throw him to the ground and kick (yes, easier said than done). Otherwise, work throws. The throws that Tito uses most are probably the best (underhook/ bodylock, lift and turn the opponents body, finish).
The only thing i'd change about his throws for the street is that I wouldn't follow the opponent to the ground worrying about control. Instead, I'd try to accelerate him to the ground to let the concrete do its work and follow up with strikes.
man, you guys are the best! i really appreciate all the tips. i took my notes and will pursue that direction of training. thanks a bunch for the great list of what to work on.
i probably already have what i need and what will keep me busy for quite some time. just wondering if anyone is bored out there and would like to start a list for me of what NOT to train or what wrestling habits i should forget about in mma on concrete. this time it's not "MMA highest percentage takedowns." if not, it's ok. i gots what is important. grateful - hsfolkstyle
"I'm not sure if I would practice the "classic" wrestling double or high-C too much if my main focus was the street. I'd be too leery of hitting my knee on the concrete. "
barrage of questions:
What double or high-C would you recommend for me with my goals in mind?
what is a near arm far leg?
are there lots of different variations of duck unders? (i only know one)
descriptions of barsigar, knee picks, and snatch singles? (maybe we call them differently)
high-crotch to a lift? Starts from normal high crotch but you immediately cut the corner and seat belt behind oponents hips and lift for slam.(arm in crotch stays there arm you clearred opponnts arm with goes behind his back)
Easy guillotine on HC? HAve to check that out. I really
hate to be without training partners!
And as for MMA on concrete, same as any MMA, just because you deem it impractical and don't practice it,
it will happen anyway. So back to work.
Holy crap, that is a barrage of questions! Descriptions of each of those would be worth their own thread each. I simply don't have time to do each of those proper justice. Unfortunately, there was an archived thread on the barsigar at one point - it got completely scrambled in the migration to the new site so there was no way to make heads or tails of it, so I deleted it. :-(
But some short answers...
I don't know if I'd really practice doubles or high-C's too much for the street. Would I practice them? Sure, but I just wouldn't focus too much energy on them. If nothing else, a lot of people in the street might attempt something along those lines (if a bit unrefined) and it would be good to be familiar with them.
I imagine someone at some point will recommend you learn a "blast double" (it goes by some other names too) where you grab behind your opponent's knees and ram your head into his chest to knock him on his ass. My 2 cents: I have NEVER seen this actually work in a live situation, other than on a junior league level wrestler. Don't bother with it. It's one of those moves that's nifty to drill a little and play with, but if you try it against a resisting opponent (even someone with minimal training) it's got about a 1% chance of success. I will never understand why some people seem to have a fanatical adoration for this technique. Usually I'll ask them how many times they've hit it in a live situation, and I get a mumbling, "Well... uh... a few times, um, I'm pretty sure I have, anyway." Bullshit, unless you're rolling with someone on crutches. (I'm sure I've offended many blast double adherents with this post.)
Yes, there are many different ways to hit a duck under. The basic mechanics of a duck don't change much regardless of which variation you're going for, but there are dozens of different ways to set it up and get there. Even if the duck itself isn't successful, the attempt often takes your opponent out of position and off-balance, opening up a lot of other follow-on opportunities. It's an especially useful technique to practice from the clinch, IMO.
A knee pick is similar to an ankle pick, but with some important differences. (To the "untrained eye" they look almost identical, but there are some crucial differences in actual application to make each work properly.) I think www.lesgutches.com has a good description of a knee pick, check it out.
Snatch singles are along the lines of the "blast double", except they actually work. I think someone wrote a thread about snatch singles that is archived. You may want to look at that.
"My" version of a snatch single is this: you are squared off with your opponent. Let's say he's got his left leg forward. I'll bang his left shoulder (while stepping into him) with my right arm which straigtens him up and moves his weight to his back foot, making the lead leg much lighter. I "snatch" his left knee with my left hand - my finger tips just need to get behind the tendons on the inside of his knee. I continue driving into him and lifting his knee up until I can get into a good head inside single position - finish with whatever you want.
*Note - I've found that on many people with less experience or training (like many on the "street"), the process of just getting the snatch single often is enough to bring them down - the key is to do it with intensity and violence! Do NOT be gentle.
you are a very patient man - my hat's off to you.
lol, it's a slow day at work Bruce, so I had some extra time.
P.S. - noshame, thanks for explaining the high-C/choke risk. I know I've heard that before (probably from you!), but I had forgotten about that.
I'd have to say stay away from singles on the street
because you never know how strong your opponent is.
Maybe he can muscle you out of it or maybe he did some high school wrestling and can do a cross face or whizzer. If the guy is upright and coming at you,
drop your weight, shoulder in stomach and chop his knees. He will go down. Basic double.Just make sure you don't put too much power forward as you want to remain standing. and don't bother lifting. He might be too heavy, too unbalanced and shifty enough to grab your head and bring you down with him. And once he's on the ground, go around his leg to a knee on stomach,
run away or stomp away.
As for the "double blast", as described by Chip, that
sounds useless, but there is a variation on that which is that you get a solid bear hug around your opponent's lower back, shove your forehead or face in
his chest and squeeze/push as hard as you can. If he's upright, he should bend backwards and you can walk over him straight into a full mount.
Gee, I think we could talk about this for months.