actually, the "blast double" can be very useful on the street due to "posturing".
Have you ever seen how many time before a fight, ne guy puffs his chest out, puts his arms wide to his side (trying to look big and scary) and steps right in front of his opponent? I can't count the number of times I've seen this. He perfectly set himself up for the blast. also, you can make your opponent land very hard on his head/shoulders with a blast. finally, as long as you keep your head pointed so that you're leading with your forehead, you get a nice headbutt to his nose if he sprawls.
now, against a good wrestler who isn't posturing- forget the blast.
no shame
This is exactly what I was wanting. Thank you for your GREAT discussion. I don't know if I would ever get this info in 30 years on my own. Chip, all I needed was that short explanation too (not necessarily a long instructional). I thank everyone for your time.
happy with my new found knowledge,
HSFolkstyle
I would work pure armdrags. They work like a charm on
or off the mat.
I'd only go with arm drags before strikes are going. I've actually used them when I used to bounce, but that was in the "pushing" stage of the conflict. Man pushes, you drag. If punches are being thrown though, I'd stay away from them.
no shame
no shame, I guess the stuff about a guy who's "posturing" - head up, chest puffed out, arms held way out to the sides (yes, I've seen that a million times too) - that all kind of makes sense. Here's my problem with it though - since I've never put too much time in training it, I don't think I'd ever be able to hit it with much confidence even on a guy with zero training and who's posturing like a mofo! But I suppose you could train for that specific scenario...
I think agree with WhiteWhale and no shame on the arm drags too. Might be nice little tools when the confrontation is still in the process of escalating and you can use it help subdue a guy who's not totally out of control (yet), but once the shit hits the fan: A) they may be dangerous to try, and B) would probably be hard to even execute properly against someone "spazzing" on you in a barroom brawl.
Chip:
I have to ask about your comments about the blast double. The reason I ask is because the blast double has been my son's bread and butter move throughout high school. I have seem him score against state placers and Junior National placers. Is this level still what you classify as a "junior league level wrestler". No offense taken by that comment. If you are saying that when he gets to college he will need something else, that is fine.
I am just asking because he recently won a match at a major high school tournament by medical forfeit when his opponent tried to sprawl and got his nose broke. This seems exactly the type of thing your would want on the street.
I'm assuming that in the "blast double" you ram your head into your opponent but in the normal double the head goes to the side of him. And I'm also assuming that the latter technique could work very effectively in a street fight, even if you do it by running through him, similar to the blast double. Am I correct?
If so, you're saying that to run through a guy with a double leg, your head really has to be on the outside for it to work. Right?
jonpall, a blast double is where you drop your hips (lower your level) only very slightly and basically run straight into your opponent, head in his chest, and snatching the back of his knees to bring him down.
Chuck, I suppose I can't really comment on your son's use of the blast double because I've never seen him use it. I will say I find it very surprising that he's had that much success with it.
The blast double is one of those moves that I consider a "clinic move" - a move that some people will teach at a clinic for fun and to have the kids mess with it at the end of a practice or something. When I say that I've never seen the blast double work in any live wrestling situation (matches or practices) except for at the youth league level, that is the plain and simple truth. I have never seen it work.
Case in point, we had a "guest coach" one night at our club that came in and taught some good stuff. Then he teaches the blast double - one of our other coaches turns to me and says, "He's teaching the blast double? Where did you find this dildo?" LOL. He then asks the guy in front of the kids how effective it is (which I thought was a little bit harsh to put him on the spot like that). And the guy said something to the effect of, "Well, I mean, sometimes it might work at the high school level, if, ya know..."
If your son is that successful with it, I suppose he should keep doing it. But my experiences on the mat and on the side of the mat (coaching) have taught me that it is simply not a good move.
Caveat: one good thing about it is that there is not significant risk with it. If you hit a blast double and it doesn't work, no harm done. You don't leave yourself in a bad position in wrestling. Then again, on the street, I would want to end things as quickly as possible - meaning, I would want to go for a technique that is high percentage and I know will work rather than a technique that has less of a chance of working.
I suppose I sound really harsh on the blast double - and my tone is probably a bit more exagerrated than it deserves. The reason for this is that I very often see people discuss the blast double (I think some people call it an MT double too) on this forum as if it were one of the best techniques around, and I sort of got fed up with it and went on a tirade, lol.
So again, my experience has taught me that it simply isn't a very effective technique. But if your son sees a lot of success with it, more power to him.
Sidenote:
Actually, I have to laugh at myself because I just remembered that someone used it very effectively on me once. In college, I was working out with one of our heavyweights who used to actually have to cut weight to make 275 - he weighed around 285/290. (I was a 150 pounder). At one point, he blast doubled me across the room. I saw it coming, but against someone almost double my size (literally!) it was tough to stop!
Maybe it's repressed memories of that incident that is the cause for all my blast double hatred? LOL
Chip:
My son doesn't do the blast double quite the way that you describe it. He hits it alittle higher on the legs and comes up with it. He drives the head up into the sternum and drives until the opponent is up on his heels or completly off of his feet. The big advantage is that he is pretty good at greco and if he slips off the legs he usually ends up in a body lock.
Chuck, that is exactly the blast double that I know too. I was just a bit lazy in my description.
lmao @ Chip's story about getting blast doubled across the mat.
I once got ran over by Waterman in the same manner (actually, I never hit the ground, but my ass went through a wall). Todd saw the hole in our gym and I must say, I'm not proud of it. lol
no shame
From Chip:
"If nothing else, a lot of people in the street might attempt something along those lines (if a bit unrefined) and it would be good to be familiar with them."
Exactamundo. Other than the John Wayne punch, the tackle is the most common move you are gonna see an untrained fighter perform. If you know how to double, and know how to sprawl on a good double, you aren't gonna have trouble with most so called "street" fighters.
Of course, you could avoid most of this by not even putting yourself in this situation. But that is a whole other topic...
My new years resolution is to blast double by the summer... it *could* happen... maybe if he's not looking... although I do remember getting completely annihilated by him last time, but I was tired... yeah, tired...
A question for Chip about the blast double. I thought that you were supposed to post and/or grab below the knees, as close to the ankles as possible, and drive through, preventing them from sprawling.
jgibson, I totally agree, the most common tactics of an untrained fighter that I've seen are 1. Wild haymaker type punch 2. Wild "football style" tackle (basically a sloppy double leg).
If you know how to defend against a doubgle or high-C against someone who knows what they're doing, it's going to be that much easier to defend against when some yuck-a-puck tries it on you.
Tommy - Some people grab behind the knees or slightly higher for a blast double.
If you're talking about the "regular" double, you're correct that you grab behind the knees or even snake your hands down behind his calves to limit his mobility and ability to sprawl.
Noshame mentioned in a post above, however, that it's a good idea to bring your far-side arm (the one opposite the side of where your head is) up to his hips on a "regular" double to help prevent him going for a guillotine choke in an MMA scenario. In straight wrestling, I'd say to keep your hand lower. But for MMA, I'll have to defer to no shame and recommend you go with his advice.
WhiteWhale - those are some interesting comments coming from a muay thai perspective. I wouldn't have thought of that.
Randy Couture obviously thinks the double leg is a good move in MMA, even with the danger of a guillotine. So I'm wondering, how can you minimize the guillotine risk when executing a double leg or a high C?
jonpall - look about 15 posts above at noshame's original post on this thread.
Chip... what I'm talking about is basically "spearing" your opponent by running at them, shoving your shoulder straight into their stomach and grabbing their ankles... is that the blast double? I believe you or one of the other coaches taught it as a variation of the double leg...
p.s. Did you go to the JKD school a few weeks ago?
No, didn't hit the JKD school.
What you're describing sounds pretty similar to a blast double, but not quite the same thing. What you're describing sounds like it would be difficult to pull off to me - simply because it would be tough to hit a guy in the stomach with your shoulder and reach his ankles at the same time.
"What you're describing sounds like it would be difficult to pull off to me"
YOU TAUGHT IT TO ME!!!!!!!