I believe the reason Randy,Chuck,Tito,Hughes ect. dominate is because it is better to have a base in wrestling and boxing/kickboxing than BJJ. A good wrestler can always control where the fight goes and a wresler that can srike forget it. I am not saying you dont have to know subs but 30% of the bjj offense goes when you can punch on the ground or stand up and back away. The another 30% when you start sweating. All fights start standing If the BJJ cant out wrestle you or strike you the odds are in your favor!BJJ is the most proven system in sub wrestling and grappling tournaments and definately useful but not the most important in NHB. This is just why I believe american fighters have such success!
all the guys you states all do bjj also. Why not have all three?
All three that you mentioned have all won and lost via sub (except chuck who I dont think even won with a sub but he has lost via sub)
Your comparison is pretty poor...assuming that you've wrestled before, you know that quite a bit of wrestling won't be used in MMA either (gut wrenches come to mind). Just because BJJ loses "30 percent" doesn't mean that it is less effective.
However, having said all of that...I think that the best base style is the one that makes you more athletic. You'll learn the skills, but the key is to have athleticism, and wrestling is very good that way. Lots of LIVE drills. No pretending that physical conditioning doesn't matter, etc.
(still, those guys at BTT look like they are in decent shape, etc.)
ps. you can't really have 3 base styles...every practitioner is going to have something that they are just naturally better at (even within a sport, some people are better at armbars than leglocks, some are better at hip throws than foot sweeps, right hooks vs. left jabs, etc.) and those fighters should make use of their advantage IMO...Tito is better at subs than Randy, Tito trying to pummel in on Randy and out clinch him is pointless IMO, he should try and sub him even if that strategy is foolish against someone like Shamrock or Elvis
I" think that the best base style is the one that makes you more athletic. You'll learn the skills, but the key is to have athleticism, and wrestling is very good that way."
exactly.
Let's play. Let's assume that fighter "A" has good wrestling and striking skills but almost no submission skills.
Let's see how he would do against the following fighters, each of which has a weakness in one of the 3 main areas of MMA (subs, takedowns/top control, striking):
Fighter B has good bjj and striking skills, but little wrestling skills (takedowns and top control). How would A fare against B? Well, they would have an equal chance of winning standing up, seeing that their striking skills are equal. If it went to the ground, most likely B would have A in his guard (because B is a bad wrestler), or B would take A's back.
In the case of the guard, A MIGHT knock out B, but it's unlikely, since B is a good striker and like f.ex. Maurice Smith, is not going to get knocked out from his guard. In addition, a fighter that's both good at BJJ and striking, will be very hard to actually knock out from his guard. He might get some punches but he's probably not going to get knocked out. From the mount, maybe, from the guard, no. But fighter A knows just about nothing about submissions, so B has a good chance of submitting A from the guard. And A's punches won't bother B that much because he's used to them.
So B's strategy against A should be to use defensive boxing from his feet (so he doesn't get KOed), clinch, and either hope that they go down to the ground (because it will be hard for B to get A to the ground without pulling guard), or to try to finish from standing. I'd say that it's a pretty even match, if the two guys are athletically similar. But I would bet on B.
Now, let's see how A would do against fighter C, a guy with good submissions skills, good wrestling skills but little striking skills:
Standing up, C will be in some danger. He needs to shoot in quickly to avoid the strikes. Standing up, C is in a great disadvantage. He's up against a much better striker and an equally good wrestler. Let's hope that C can take A down, either with a wrestling takedown, or by pulling guard. It's not that likely, though, IMO.
On the ground, C has as good a chance as A to be on top, since they are equally good at wrestling. If C gets on top, he will probably not be able to KO A, because A has too good a punch defence. But A has almost no submission defence, so C has a good chance of submitting A from the top.
From the bottom, it's going to be very hard for C. He is not used to punches from the top of the guard. But on the other hand, A isn't too wary of submissions or the guard in general. So this might be even, although I might give the edge to A just because of the punches. C needs to have a great, tight and/or offbalancing guard to win from here. If he's good at BJJ, he might have that kind of guard.
So I would think that A has the edge over C, while A and B are pretty even. I would still probably bet on B against A.
I'm basically saying that striking is essential and then you have to know either ground art, BJJ or wrestling. Preferably both, but IMO, I would bet on BJJ because you can end the fight with both submissions and strikes from all positions.
Now, finally, let's check out fighter D. D is good in striking, submissions AND wrestling. I'm not going to write about this one. He just has the advantage over fighter A and is what a modern MMA fighter should be.
Skills in all 3 main areas of MMA, along with conditioning, is what counts in top level MMA competitions. Against the average guy in the gym or on the street, you probably only need one of those skills, i.e. just boxing, just bjj or just wrestling.
JMHO,
jonpall.
ttt
Good comparison/contrast jonpall
"how many wrestlers dominate Pride?"-Coleman won the Grand Prix, but that was in his Prime. Henderson isnt doing too shabby. The problem with Pride is they really don't have any decent HW wrestlers, and they have one LHW (Silva) who just matches up really good against Wrestlers. Henderson, Rampage and Randleman all do pretty good in Pride.