It explores the theories of Jesus surviving the crucifixion and being transported to India. The arguements are very convincing.
If anyone can take the time to go over the site and point out any gross factual inaccuracies I'd like to hear your thoughts.
aside from all the eye witness accounts of him bodily ascending into heaven? The eye witness account of him being dead? And the fact that his followers, died horrible deaths without recanting their testimony?
Oh, and I haven't read the website yet, but as you can see I am already very biased.
the rev
The gospels reveal that Jesus' side was pierced and "blood and water" poured out. This clearly indicates that Jesus' blood had separated into plasma (which is 90% water) and the red, sticky remainder, which demonstrates that Jesus' heart had stopped pumping for some time. Which suggests he was dead at the time.
like most other frauds, the never let you actually go in and examine it. funny how it always works that way!
There are many groups in Pakistan and India that are likely descended from Jews; among them are the Jews of Telegu, the Bnei Israel (mentioned on the site), Bnei Mennaseh (Children of Mennaseh, a lost tribe), the Cochin, the Mizoram and the Pashthuns (ironically, the Pashtuns supported the Taliban).
The fact that several Jewish or Jewish-like tribes have existed in the area for over 2000 years has no bearing on Jesus.
Further, a basic analysis of Jesus' contemporaries would clearly show his philosophy was of Jewish origin not of Buddhist origin. Rabbi Hillel (30BCE-9CE) and Rabbi Gamliel (10CE-50CE) were two left wing Rabbis living around the time of Jesus and repeatedly quoted in the Talmud. In fact, I believe Paul claims to have been a student of Gamliel so the influence in Christian teachings must exist. Here are even some famous stories about Hillel to strike the point home:
A pagan went to Rabbi Shammai (leader of right-wing Judaism the generation before Jesus) and said "Teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Shammai, an architect by trade, took his brick-laying tool and struck out at the pagan "Be gone!". The Pagan ran to Rabbi Hillel's camp (leader of left-wing Judaism) and said "Teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel said "Do not do unto other what is hateful unto you. The rest is commentary, go and study it." The pagan paused, put his foot down. "Does this mean we are all brothers- the pagans and the Jews." "Yes, we are all brothers." "May I return tommorow for another lesson?" "Yes my son."
When the Romans murdered Hillel, he had his followers, among them Gamliel's teachers, teach his two highest commandments which were Do not do unto others what is hateful unto you AND love the Lord your G-d with all your strength, all your mind and all your soul.
The direct relation to some of Jesus' teachings is evident- this modern revisionism in which Jesus is turned into a Buddhist and spent years of life in India, or Tibet or Japan is poop that goes beyond galoshes- I need bloody cover-alls to protect me from this intellectually dishonest and staining idea.
MS
PS: I am ticked off because in the past 6 months this has come up at least 6 times.
don't get mad, get even :)
the rev
How does one do this "getting even" thing?
You are a mod, start deleting stuff :)
the rev
This does come up a lot.
It's funny, because people will either say that Jesus traveled to India and learned Buddhism as a young man prior ro his ministry, or that he fled there after faking his death.
If you actually look at the evidence on that site, it's incredibly skimpy, or embarassingly mis-read.
Guys,
I appreciate the comments but my question was not about the lost years before Jesus was 30. It was about the possibility of him surviving the crucifixtion. I agree that the theories of him in India or Egypt as a child are sketchy at best but so far it seems that the theories of him surviving the crucifixtion seem to hold merit.
cont..
Andes- How much physiology do you know? I am 3 classes away from graduating with a degree in Kinesiology. I can say pretty confidently that anyone on a cross for over 6 hours will DIE of cardiogenic shock (the heart is so damaged, in this case from trauma and lack of blood) it can not circulate blood) or hypervolemic shock (internal hemorraging to the point of heart failure). The site says he was up for 3 hours. You know what, given the fact that he was whipped and tortured and pierced with a spear, I'd say his chances of surviving assuming he was only up for 3 hours (and I am not a doctor or a forensic speacialist) is maybe 1/40. The stress, trauma, fluid loss, heat, etc. would be devastating. The human body, wonderfuly adaptable as it is, must remain within certain ranges or it simply falls apart. Your hands can withstand a perfect vaccum for about 20 minutes, while your head only about 1! He had simply been through too much to have any real shot of surviving without divine intervention AND a modern ER (to transfer plasma, blood, blood clotting factors, so up his injuries, reduce the strain on his heart, replenish his salts and sugars, etc.)
Rev- HEHEHAHA!!
MS
did you read the blood and water comment? Do you think Roman executioners were not aware of what constitutes death? The bible states his time on the cross at six hours not three.
the rev
"but so far it seems that the theories of him surviving the crucifixtion seem to hold merit"
Most of the "proofs" on that site are either misinterpretations of vedic texts (India is a garden of religious ideas and movements, some lone guru saying he came from a far off land does NOT make him Jesus) or they are Islamic stories regarding Jesus. Muslims believe that Jesus did not die on the cross, but fooled the Jews and Romans and escaped. Nearly all of the stories on there are very late (some from the 1600s and 1700s!) which state that Jesus escaped to their neck of the woods. As that is the muslim belief, there are bound to be numerous stories and legends claiming, like a hotel that once supposedly harbored George Washington, that Jesus slept here. But, outside there being stories which cropped up at much later dates, there is nothing to indicate those stories have much in the way of validity.
The christian communities in India can be traced back to St Thomas, who supposedly went (and died) there.
"Do you think Roman executioners were not aware of what constitutes death?"
REV has choke-slammed the correct! The Roman soldiers were not doctors to pronounce death-but they were proffessional killers. Also- there are several non-christian sources that attested to the fact that Jesus died.
pneuma,
thanks for the response, you make a good point about the muslim bias on the site. IMO it then comes down to whether or not you want to trust the muslim or christian bias. both of which seem to have valid points.
Have you read the gospel of thomas? like it?
MS,
I work in health care and have a decent amount of graduate level courses in physiology. but that aside, there are people quoted on that site who have more physiology knowledge than you and i put together.
What's your take on the yearly crucifixtions in the phillipines where some people are nailed for up to two days yet still survive?
Also, how it is inconcievable that someone who can walk on water, heal the blind, and exhibit supernatural powers not survive the crucifixtion as described?
I'm not saying he definately survived, only that there's enough of an arguement to leave the possibility open to speculation.
MS,
I agree with you about Jesus in India before age 30. I've read some of Elizabeth Prophet's work on it and thought the scholarship was crappy. The origins of his teachings in left wing judeism makes more sense.
It never made sense to me either why people had to claim he learned his initial teachings in India because there's really nothing mindblowing or groundbreaking about Jesus' teachings anyway. Most (if not all) of his merit came from metaphysical and supernatural claims (resurrection, virgin birth, etc.).
"thanks for the response, you make a good point about the muslim bias on the site."
I would not necessarily describe it as "muslim bias".
I don't know who's behind the site. My point is that they are taking local muslim legends and presenting it as proof, just as they are taking hindu writings about some guru and saying it is obviously Jesus. Considering the problems that jesus later caused-- the hatred of christians by romans and the dislike by certain jewish contingents-- if there was rum
"about IMO it then comes down to whether or not you want to trust the muslim or christian bias.
The difference is that christian gospels were written by people who either knew and followed jesus or at least knew people who knew and followed jesus. They are closer to the fact and closer to the subject. Many of the legends they use on there seem to have been recorded around the 1700s. The bottom line, is that if you have a tomb, you should have the body.
"Have you read the gospel of thomas? like it?"
I have and I do. What's that got to do with it?
ttt for later
This is called the swoon theory and it's been debunked as many times as it is brought up. Read Lee Strobel's "The Case for Christ" or just type swoon theory into google.
Found the entire chapter from Strobel's book online...
http://indiaculture.net/talk/messages/65/9679.html?1016186773
ALEXANDER METHERELL, M.D., Ph.D.
As you would expect from someone with a medical degree (University of Miami in Florida) and a doctorate in engineering (University of Bristol in England), Metherell speaks with scientific precision. He is board certified in diagnosis by the American Board of Radiology and has been a consultant to the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute of the National Institutes of Health of Bethesda, Maryland.
A former research scientist who has taught at the University of California, Metherell is editor of five scientific books and has written for publications ranging from Aerospace Medicine to Scientific American. His ingenious analysis of muscular contraction has been published in The Physiologist and Biophysics Journal ...
Strobel:"Is there any possible way-any possible way-that Jesus could have survived this?" ( Crucifiction)
Metherell shook his head and pointed his finger at me for emphasis. "Absolutely not," he said. "Remember that he was already in hypovolemic shock from the massive blood loss even before the crucifixion started. He couldn't possibly have faked his death, because you can't fake the inability to breathe for long. Besides, the spear thrust into his heart would have settled the issue once and for all. And the Romans weren't about to risk their own death by allowing him to walk away alive."
"So," I said, "when someone suggests to you that Jesus merely swooned on the cross "I tell them it's impossible. It's a fanciful theory without any possible basis in fact."