My oldest son (age 11) earned his yellow belt last night. It got me to wondering: What are the general qualifications for rank in judo? I realize that the yellow belt is just a kid's rank, effectively a type of white belt. But green belt is an adult rank. I have seen several sites that list requirements for rank; all are similar, none are identical.
So what are your personal ideas for what constitutes (or ought to constitute) a green/blue/purple/brown belt? Does time at rank count for anything, or is it purely an ability-related thing? Should the 100-lb black belt be able to defeat the 250-lb green belt 95% of the time?
For the record, I personally am not very belt-oriented. I am a white belt and will likely remain so forever; I can only train once a week, I have little time to practice, no practice partner, and some health (joint) issues that might put an end to my judo training at any moment. And even if I ever did get good, I just don't care that much about wearing a colored belt. (Black belt is different, but that's not in my future.) But I think belts might offer an encouraging path to my kids.
USJF and USJA standards are on their websites.
USA Judo varies from state to state.
Ben R.
"Should the 100-lb black belt be able to defeat the 250-lb green belt 95% of the time?"
Someone PLEASE weigh in on this.
"Should the 100-lb black belt be able to defeat the 250-lb green belt 95% of the time?"
I ask from personal experience. I am only a white-belt, but I weigh about 195 and, at 41, have some of that "old man" strength. But I've noticed since I started that the smaller people (high school kids) have trouble with me, even if I'm clueless as to what they're doing. I simply weigh too much or am too strong (and I'm not particularly strong -- quite skinny, actually).
I could be totally wrong, but...I suspect among the kids (less than 18) and ladies in our club, there are several brown belts and even black belts that wouldn't be able to defeat me in randori. And not because I'm good -- I'm not -- but because I outweigh them by 50-100 pounds.
If any upper belts think I'm just plain wrong and I don't know what I'm talking about, please weigh in. Otherwise, I'd be interested to know what would normally be expected of a "black belt" regarding competition with larger and stronger, lower belts.
Being heavier than everyone (save one) that I've ever competed against or done randori against, I have mixed results, and, therefore, confusion. (I'm a fairly new green belt.)
I have absolutely destroyed a couple of browns and blacks who were my age (40) and younger. Some were above 200 lbs and fairly athletic.
I hold my own against other browns and blacks in practice and competition, but they usually get the best of me at the end of the day (sometimes literally, when I'm tired after a long practice).
Still other browns and blacks, and a few greens, hand me my ass on a regular basis.
This just goes to show you that, whether you like or not, size and strength do have something to do with personal fighting ability. I have sparred with quite a few people who were stronger, faster, had better attributes,etc... Most of the time, they were less experienced than me, but every once in while, they tap me out any way because they are too damn strong.
You know what else? That is perfectly okay. It shows the people less experienced than I am that they have learned something, and they also feel good about it. As for me, it gives me an opportunity to address the various weaknesses that their superior attributes allowed them to take advantage of, so that when I come back for the next match, I am ready to make them pay!!!
If you have been training hard for at least 2 years, you have tapped out to some one less experienced than you. Anyone who says otherwise is a goddamned liar.
"Should the 100-lb black belt be able to defeat the 250-lb green belt 95% of the time?"
sometimes.. sometimes not. ranks isnt the prevailing issue here to me; attitude, confidence and technical ability are just as important. by that i mean just becuase somebody has a higher rank doesnt mean they have a "killer" attitude or is a really solid fighter or even have developed the technical ability to deal with bigger people.
when talking about kids (HS and below) and shodans, perhaps nidans, i would tend to say NO. when you are discussing people who are competitive on a higher level i'd say yes.
Beating somebody is pretty subjective. Practice for some people is just that...Practice. I've pretty recently returned to Judo after about 6 or so years of retirement and weight gain. I'm not as strong or fit as I used to be, so for the last several months, I've been trying to "re-invent" my Judo and try things I've never done before. This leaves me more open to mistakes/counters etc. Having people exploit weaknesses is the only way I'll be able to properly adapt my judo and make it better. Beating people isn't what practice is all about. That's what tournaments are for.
Other things you need to take into consideration are: 1) Is that person more tired than you from a long day of ____? 2) are they out of shape? 3) are they injured......There's lots of factors that lead to success/defeat. Some people are good club players, some are good at tournaments. Finding out which one you are sometimes is more important than your win/loss record.
"Beating people isn't what practice is all about. That's what tournaments are for."
I understand this point, but if you don't try to win in practice, how are you going to win in a tournament?
"Other things you need to take into consideration are: 1) Is that person more tired than you from a long day of ____? 2) are they out of shape? 3) are they injured......There's lots of factors that lead to success/defeat. Some people are good club players, some are good at tournaments. Finding out which one you are sometimes is more important than your win/loss record."
Again - great points, but I need to really try to learn just how good/bad I am by constantly trying to test myself against everyone I can. Nobody could be more tired/out of shape/old and weak than I am. But I do believe I have fighting spirit - that's probably the only thing I really have.
Gordinho wrote:
"I understand this point, but if you don't try to win in practice, how are you going to win in a tournament? "
Depends on how you defining "winning" in practice.
When I started, randori was the olympics for me. Luckily, the only getting hurt was myself. Now I use the time to address specific areas that I want to work on. If I score, great but I learn a lot more it seems when I'm not able to finish a technique strongly.
100 lbs is HUGE advantage. I doubt that most people, regardless of dan ranking, can regularly beat someone 100 lbs heavier, who had 2 years+ of training, and is in somewhat good shape. National level and better players are exceptions, obviously.
Ed
JudoEd, i would tend to agree with you. the only thing i would mention besides what has already been mentioned is age. no disrespect to anybody by my playing the age card, but it does factor into things here on all sides.
You mean younger people have the advantage, or older people? Or people in their 20s?
"Depends on how you defining "winning" in practice. When I started, randori was the olympics for me."
That's how I feel, because it ain't gonna get any better for me. Practice is my Olympics.
"Luckily, the only getting hurt was myself."
What do you mean by this? Were you getting hurt physically or in terms of your progress in judo? Was there ever the threat of anyone else you practiced with getting hurt?
"Now I use the time to address specific areas that I want to work on. If I score, great but I learn a lot more it seems when I'm not able to finish a technique strongly."
That's a good idea. My point is this, though: by doing randori with many different types of players, aren't you able to address all of those areas in simulated competition? I've found that I progress the most when the guy I am doing randori with/against is out there trying to kill me and me trying to kill him. I learn technique from studying video, learning from my instructors, and doing uchikomi, but I REALLY learn by doing randori as often and as hard as I can.
"100 lbs is HUGE advantage. I doubt that most people, regardless of dan ranking, can regularly beat someone 100 lbs heavier, who had 2 years+ of training, and is in somewhat good shape."
A question and a statement here. Does this also apply to heavyweights, who routinely fight people 100 lbs heavier?
Also, what if you're not in good shape and have had less than 2 yrs training? Again, I'm just trying to find out where I stand here.
"JudoEd, i would tend to agree with you. the only thing i would mention besides what has already been mentioned is age. no disrespect to anybody by my playing the age card, but it does factor into things here on all sides."
How big of a factor is age? Like I said, I'm a beginner (in judo anyway) and I'm 40. In the three shiai I have been in, I have been the oldest competitor in the adult division - not just in my weight, but in the division itself. Usually those in their late 30s and above go Masters. But I don't feel like I should go Masters, because I still feel like I'm able to compete with those who are 18-35 or so, and I won't even consider Masters until I'm 50.
Gordinho,
Not sure, but I think the spaceman actually meant both. I know that is true for me. One of my coaches told me that when I was a white/yellow belt, I should be trying to kill the black belts, but that as I progressed it would be more give and take. I have found that to be true. I take many more chances now, and get thrown a lot more, but I am also able to throw others much more as well.
As far as weight/strength goes, I think it is a diminishing returns principle. IE, the difference in strength between a 150 lb guy and a 250 lb guy, in most cases, is going to be significant. However, the difference between 250 and 350 is not going to be nearly as great. Even 20 pounds can make a huge difference between 2 people at under 190 or 200. There are certainly a lot of variables that go into it, but that is my general belief.
Age is similar to strength, I think. And weight plays into it as well. At the lower weights, the younger guys have a big advantage, because the game is more speed, and that is always the first thing to go. The bigger you get, the more the game is based on strength, so a big, strong, older guy can still be competitive much longer against younger guys than a small, older guy.
I think this is true of most sports if you look around.
gord... if the tournaments were more competitive with a higher caliber of young, talented athletes you'd want nothing to do with a senior division.
its safe for you to compete in local tournaments at a senior level becuase it isnt as if you are running into the kid of guy who plays in the NFL as a lineman... if those were the people doing judo, i'm pretty sure youd think twice about that.
age matters becuase not only does one lose mobility, agility, reaction time and flexability you also have exterrior concerns that come into your mind constantly.
youth is also a disadvantage becuase, as we all know, often times young studs are as stupid as anything else.
as i said, age is a factor, both ways.
"gord... if the tournaments were more competitive with a higher caliber of young, talented athletes you'd want nothing to do with a senior division.
its safe for you to compete in local tournaments at a senior level becuase it isnt as if you are running into the kid of guy who plays in the NFL as a lineman... if those were the people doing judo, i'm pretty sure youd think twice about that."
Josh - That's the kinda insight I want/need to hear. But then again, will I ever run into the NFL type in today's judo? Probably not, right? Might I continue to be able to compete in this sport on the local/regional level as I age - as long as I continue to improve in terms of skill and fitness? I figure I'm a normal big guy going against other normal big guys, except they are much, much younger than me. I guess I can get satisfaction from that alone.
I will tell you this, though....My record against former NFL/DIV I football players in sumo is 1-2, which means nothing except that I don't fear anyone. I actually would welcome more such competition in judo.....even though I understand it might mean the death of me.......:-).
Age comes into play a little later in the heavier weights. However age affects us all. Pass 30, we all have slower reaction times, may lose some flexibility, are more susceptible to injuries, and have longer and longer recovery times. Injuries that would not have bothered me in my twenties, or even early thirties, are taking forever to heal now. Pass 40/45, we begin to lose muscular strength. C'est la vie. I don't make the rules!
Ed
""Should the 100-lb black belt be able to defeat the 250-lb green belt 95% of the time?"
It depends on the black belt and the green belt, totally.
Ben R.
Ben R: "It depends on the black belt and the green belt, totally."
So then, doesn't that dilute the meaning of belt levels, especially of a black belt? If I can't assume that (for instance) a 100-pound shodan has some certain minimal level of skill, what's the point of the black belt?
I'm not saying a 100-lb black belt should (or should not) be able to consistently beat the 250-lb green belt. I'm just saying that if it really does totally and completely depend on the individuals, then that seems to remove any useful meaning from the belts.