Ausgepicht - FWIW, there are documents of the early Colonists having "Rough and Tumble" matches. Basically vale tudo matches where fights kept going when they hit the ground. I am sure these guys were America's first "MMAers".
Cool thread regardless.
That's true...and that's most likely what motivated a lot of submission wrestlers to develop and hone their skills.
Abraham Lincoln was a wrestler. Martin "Farmer" Burns made Iowa the wreslting "Mecca" of America, more than 100 years ago.
It was one of those submission experts (referred to as a "hooker"), Ad Santel, who took on Japan's best Judoka's.
Both American submission wrestling, and Judo, were both becoming the premier grappling arts by the 1880's.
In America it was greatly enhanced by many European immigrants who added their own techniques.
Here's a good article i just found on it at sherdog...
America's first mixed martial artist was probably some guy that did judo as a kid, wrestled in highschool, and took up boxing later to stay in shape after he graduated.
He probably had no idea just how effective his training was and went on to live a very happy life with his family.
Before the UFC started, I had a buddy who's big brother was a wrestler that had done muay thai since he was little. Of course he had zero submissions other than the TMA stuff he did as a kid but I'd say he was pretty formidable
WrestlingSucks - America's first mixed martial artist was probably some guy that did judo as a kid, wrestled in highschool, and took up boxing later to stay in shape after he graduated.
He probably had no idea just how effective his training was and went on to live a very happy life with his family.
Before the UFC started, I had a buddy who's big brother was a wrestler that had done muay thai since he was little. Of course he had zero submissions other than the TMA stuff he did as a kid but I'd say he was pretty formidable
There might have been a lot of MMArtists in the pioneer days. But for those actually documented i wouldn't be surprised if some are still undiscovered. Just like some, old, lost film of the past.
if its not on a shipyard dock and no ones wearing sunglasses then it aint kajekempo imo lol i kid.. but most of the ninja work ive seen here locally is horribly unrealistic self defense.
I was also offered a job to work under Okazaki's son.. the guy who now runs the NIKKO restoration clinic. But i turned it down...that "interview" of sorts was way to karate kid like.. m'fer toled me "you dont walk like a martial artist" lol frrrrrrp I was outta there.
YourFathersUncle - Oh, horseshit. You could keep on reducing it back to some guy in his basement.
There never was a time when most of this shit was practical.
It was always primarily centered around arts appreciation, and fly by nights who make money off of claiming that they practice the "real" form of whatever martial art they preach.
The reality is, when you reduce all of the striking styles down to "reality" you generally get a sportive form like kickboxing, which neglects the vast majority of the strategies, and techniques taught in those styles.
It's amazing how much martial arts superstition still persists, even in MMA circles. It's feel good history, akin to the mountain of post-modern crap that circulates in academia. Martial Arts history is almost always ill-researched, and biased as all hell.
Hell, just take a look at its journalism. We're talking H.S. school level.
Threads like these are a symptom of the unhealthy lack of skepticism prevalent in most human beings.
In The Book of Five Rings, written in the 1640's, even Musashi talks about what are essentially McDojos teaching horrible technique for real fighting. Schools that show off trophies and wear pretty uniforms. The practice of fooling students into thinking a school is legit when to any fighter it clearly is not, is not a new concept in the slightest.
also, in The Book of Five Rings it is repeated throughout that one should constantly expand his knowledge and become familiar with every art he comes across.
MMA is the way it should be, and always was trained by the true masters of old.
fiercedragon - good info,but isn't there a bunch of talk about teddy roosevelt being a boxer/subgrappler somewhere? this is your next mission,SHANO.
I've read that too. Am not too familiar with Teddy, but here's an interesting tid-bit about FDR and Okazaki...
In 1929, Okazaki moved to Honolulu on the island of Oahu. It was here that he opened the Okazaki "Sefukujutsu In", or Okazaki Adjustment and Restoration Clinic which would eventually be called the Nikko Restoration Sanitorium. At the same time, he opened his Kodenkan Dojo to teach his Danzan-Ryu Jujutsu while still testing and improving his system. People came in droves to the Sanitorium with so-called incurable nerve disorders, including President Franklin D. Roosevelt. Incidentally, President Roosevelt offered Okazaki a job at the White House as his private therapist. Okazaki, not wanting to leave the islands, declined the offer.
There's a couple good stories on Teddy Roosevelt on these two sites...
Ausgepicht - No.There are quite a few documents from the Colonists about "Rough and Tumble" no rules matches. That has these guys beat, by oh...a few hundred years.Cool stuff, though.
rough and tumble made vale tudo look like the all valley tournament
and ive never head of 1920's heavyweight american boxing champ KO morris
Prof. Wally Jay is awesome. I had the honor of training with in back in my JJJ days. When he came to New York, I had a few semi-privates with him. When I went to San Fran, I trained @ this place with prof. Lee Eickenberg.
www.youtube.com Search: Union City Top Team DRAGONS DEN- Nor Cal Pankration DRAGONS DEN - USA Wrestling
But it only takes a little research to find out that all the old masters always...ALWAYS...cross-trained. They went tirelessly seeking to learn new and better techniques. They constantly tried to better themselves and make themselves more knowledgeable...and stay up to date on what was being taught.
This was very true also of the old masters in Hawaii.
Ausgepicht - No.There are quite a few documents from the Colonists about "Rough and Tumble" no rules matches. That has these guys beat, by oh...a few hundred years.Cool stuff, though.
rough and tumble made vale tudo look like the all valley tournament
and ive never head of 1920's heavyweight american boxing champ KO morris
They didn't keep very accurate records in those days. He could have just been a U.S. champion who never made it big. Just like some underground MMA shows in other countries, like Brazil, not all their fights were always recorded.
graciejj316 - Prof. Wally Jay is awesome. I had the honor of training with in back in my JJJ days. When he came to New York, I had a few semi-privates with him. When I went to San Fran, I trained @ this place with prof. Lee Eickenberg.