YourFathersUncle - "In The Book of Five Rings, written in the 1640's, even Musashi talks about what are essentially McDojos teaching horrible technique for real fighting. Schools that show off trophies and wear pretty uniforms. The practice of fooling students into thinking a school is legit when to any fighter it clearly is not, is not a new concept in the slightest."
Okay, now what was he professing?
The whole concept of arguing over who is doing the "real" martial art goes back to the beginning of martial arts.
I'm more concerned with what was being taught in its place that was supposedly so meaningful.
It's as it has always been. Boxing, Wrestling, and Jiu-Jitsu. Anything that falls outside of those three is going to be professing a massive amount of bullshit.
We're talking about unarmed combat here, not weapons training, and the year 2000 hasn't changed what works when it comes to unarmed combat. The laws of physics are the same.
We've simply have means by which a greater number of people can see the truth first hand. That's been the most important development: Media.
Small Circle JJ is a joke. I can't believe people even fell for that shit before the UFC.
So are you saying Muay Thai is and always has been irrelevant and useless as a form of unarmed combat?
Which boxing are you referring to? The one-dimensional modern boxing of the Marque de Queensbury rules? Or the ancient Greek style of kickboxing it was derived from?
Which wrestling are you referring to? Modern Greco-Roman? Freestyle? Or the ancient styles of Egypt, Greece, Turkey, Iran, or India?
Which Jiu-jitsu are you referring to... Gracie/Brazilian style? Or the ancient Japanese, Chinese and Indian styles it was derived from?
YourFathersUncle - It's as it has always been. Boxing, Wrestling, and Jiu-Jitsu. Anything that falls outside of those three is going to be professing a massive amount of bullshit.
Always, huh? Then the Gracies were too spoutin off massive BS when it was all about 100% pure GJJ and only 100% pure GJJ? Even when guys like Belfort, Busta, Franca were chanting that shit off after boxing their opponents to death?
I think guys like Fedor would take issue that MMA always have, is and will be about boxing, wrestling and JJ.
We're also prepared for your response on how "BJJ influnced" Fedor is, how scared he is of the LHWs, how much he sucks, etc.
Your rhetoric is still as obsolete as Rorion's propaganda. Join us in 2008 type dialogue, friend.
I dont know about "first MMAist" but there are people other than those named Gracie who have contributed and have crossed trained in the martial arts.
I dont think thread maker is saying "these guys are better and have contributed to MMA more than the Gracies," hes just saying "check out the cool shit these old school guys were doing."
Some people like to think everything started and ended in certain favourable places.
Wasa-B - I dont know about "first MMAist" but there are people other than those named Gracie who have contributed and have crossed trained in the martial arts.
I dont think thread maker is saying "these guys are better and have contributed to MMA more than the Gracies," hes just saying "check out the cool shit these old school guys were doing."
Some people like to think everything started and ended in certain favourable places.
I have a black belt in Danzanryu. Lots of info I did not know about in this thread. The school I came from did zero sparring, randori, rolling etc. Promotions were all based on learning the kata versions of the techniques. Nobody in the school had any idea about fighting or really defending themseelves. It was more like a social club for geeks (I have no idea why I was there).
A couple of years before I got my black belt I trained with a guy who had done some Gracie jj seminars and I learned the basics of grappling. Shortly after I got my black belt I realized how useless it was. This was in 1995 (that I got my bb) so it is not like there was a lot else out at the time.
A few years ago i talked extensively with Prof. Jaime Abregana, and he told me that most all of the Jujutsu/Judo techniques in Kenpo-Jujutsu had been lost by the 1980's.
He said there are literally hundreds of moves that had to be mastered to become a true Black Belt "Master".
A lot of people just wanted to "cash-in" on the success from the popularity of Bruce Lee and Kung Fu flicks. They were frustrated and didn't want to master so many techniques so most all of them were dropped and Black Belts were then given out to people who had little knowledge of anything resembling Jujutsu...or the original style that was taught.
Edmund Kealoha Parker was a good example of why this happened. Prof. Abregana said that Ed Parker was only a Brown Belt when he left Hawaii...to go to the mainland and open a school. His style of "Kenpo Karate" had little semblance to what had been taught by the founding masters.
But, unfortunately, it was his style that became the most popular style of "Karate" taught in the mainland. Students merely assumed this was the real style of the "Old Masters"...when in actuality, quite the opposite was true. The "Old Masters" never stopped learning. They absorbed whatever was useful.
Even Kajukenbo, the original Hawaiian Martial Art, had a large part of it's grappling and Jujutsu techniques removed or simply disregarded and eventually left to the wayside and forgotten.
So it's not surprising why fighters like Ed Newalu and Harris Sarmiento left the KoDenKan (DanZanRyu dojo), and started training at a straight-up MMA gym like 808 Fight factory.
It's really sad that Hawaii has such a rich history of being the birthplace of American Martial Arts, yet because of greed and disregard for true artistry, they've had to reintroduce elements that once made them so unique and influential in modern styles.
Men like Okazaki were so open to learning and adopting to whatever worked.
That man had the philosophy of a true Mixed Martial Artist. Years ahead of his time, he was really the "Bruce Lee" of his day.
Now the people who claim to carry on his legacy are actually doing the opposite.
And that is really sad
Prof. Abregana said he is trying to revive the old style and re-incorporate all the original techniques. He also told me he's sponsered some local MMA & grappling events, and trains fighters for MMA competitions.
But haven't spoken with him in quite awhile...so i really don't know how much success he's had.
Jaime Abregana Jr.
born in Hilo, Hawaii. He first studied the martial arts of Kenpo, Karate, Jujitsu in 1968 under his father, Grandmaster Jaime Abregana Sr., founder the the Ewa Kenpo Karate Club. He was also an outstanding amatuer boxer in the 1970's.