DK:
He was the first to make it a HUGE part of his training. This is documented.
I haven't seen any documentation regarding shaolin monks using weights.
Lifting boulders, stone locks, training with heavy weapons and iron sandals, dynamic tension, bodyweight conditioning, partner exercises...these are all methods used throughout the centuries. Bruce certainly wasn't the first to strength train.
Was Bruce the first to use modern resistance training? I would say no to that as well. However, he was probably the first to be fanatical and systematic about it...taking his conditioning to an extreme level using a modern approach.
4 Ranges,
No offense but you must not have read my post entirely.
If you mean martial artist then Bruce Lee WAS NOT the first.
Don Draeger, an accomplished Judoka, was using weight training principle both for himself and his students well before Bruce Lee did.
This is documented. I referenced his book "Judo Training" for a reason.
Not only did Draeger use weight training principles but also concepts from Kinesiology and Exercise Phyisology.
In other words the very things Bruce talked about doing Don Draeger was ALREADY doing for himself and for his athletes/students like Jon Bluming and Isao Inokuma.
"Don Draeger, an accomplished Judoka, was using weight training principle both for himself and his students well before Bruce Lee did."
When did he start incorporating it into his personal regimen, exactly?
"In other words the very things Bruce talked about doing Don Draeger was ALREADY doing for himself and for his athletes/students like Jon Bluming and Isao Inokuma."
Unless Draeger was talking about hitting the heavy bag, working focus mitts, in combination with sparring, weights, cross-training in boxing, savate, judo, wrestling, etc. I have to disagree.
But if you're talking about just WEIGHT-TRAINING, I read that Bruce started his weight training around 1964 or 1965, so we can turn this discussion into that kind of discussion if you want.
Man, poor Bruce can't get a break lol!!
"I haven't seen any documentation regarding shaolin monks using weights."
They had been using weighted rings for centuries, many types of weights that were designed specifically for combat training.
A common practice for Okanowan Karateka's was the use of jars filled with sand, running, striking boards...
Before it came to the US sparring was not a soft point game. Very few people did Karate in comparison to today because it was not easy.
4Ranges,
The new book "Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals" by Brian
Kennedy has several woodcut prints of Shaolin weight training
methods, as well as information about the old Chinese military officer's
exam that required, among other things, for participants to pick up a
boulder or swing a heavy sword.
Also, I know for a fact that Okinawan karate uses the chishi (big stone
weight thing), and the Chen taiji people (in China) deadlift stone
blocks. Also I have seen shuai jiao stuff using stone weights also while
they move through stances.
Finally, there are some reproduction woodcut prints of Chinese martial
arts weight training methods in the Int'l Hoplology Society (Draeger's
group and students) book "Strength Training for the Combative
Athlete." I use that book for judo and it's awesome. Lots of explosive
lifts, plyo etc.
I do not want to take away from Bruce. But your origional post
"It's unfortunate that the old nucleus chose to turn him into some feel-good icon, instead of emphasizing what he really was: the first martial artist to make physical conditioning synonymous with fighting prowess."
Isnt reaaly true, thuis has been going on for centuries. Fighters have known for centuries that physical conditioning is a major part of combatives.
You sound very cultish about Bruce.
The problem with the arguments with regards to ancient resistance training is that THEIR use of weights is far different from how BRUCE used weights.
The shaolin/okinawan methods obviously did not take into consideration the methods used by Bruce (western approach), which involved barbells and dumbbells, sets and reps, utilizing full-body and isolation exercises. I think doing a horse stance with a boulder is far different from good mornings or deadlifts, yes? Or leg extensions vs. doing front kicks with iron slippers?
The ancient methods also beg the question of effectiveness. HOW effective were they? WHO uses them NOW, and how effective were they in turning out proficient fighters? I saw one picture of Frank Shamrock picking up a boulder once...but I've seen even more pictures of him benching, squatting, upright rowing, etc. I've also read that he's switched to kettlebells. I don't think you'll see him lifting gigantic chinese flower pots anytime soon.
The methods that Bruce used (which, again, were mostly taken from his bodybuilding peers and his own research) are utilized TO THIS DAY by many of the top MMA athletes around the world. One needs only see a training session by Matt Hughes, Mario Sperry, Wanderlei Silva...then look at Bruce's old notes, to see that the WESTERN method is far more prevalent for a reason: they helped create highly athletic fighting specimens. I don't think you can say the same thing about shaolin monks.
""Strength Training for the Combative Athlete." I use that book for judo and it's awesome. Lots of explosive lifts, plyo etc."
Sounds awesome, but I'm willing to bet they weren't using iron slippers or tying boulders to their members in order to increase chi flow. Their approach sounds more western, which is what Bruce used.
"You sound very cultish about Bruce."
LOL!! And someone's been watching too many Jet Li movies and shaolin temple documentaries.
"LOL!! And someone's been watching too many Jet Li movies and shaolin temple documentaries."
I do not like Kung Fu movies, and I am not a Kung Fu guy. But I am a guy who finds books, old and new, with information.
Your origional post
"It's unfortunate that the old nucleus chose to turn him into some feel-good icon, instead of emphasizing what he really was: the first martial artist to make physical conditioning synonymous with fighting prowess."
Is not true, fighters all around the world have known about physical conditioning for centuries. We have better training methods today, that is very true, but strength traiing was important to fighters through out time.
Also keep in mind that in 1938 the USSR National Committee of Physical Culture recconized Sambo. It is not only a grappling style but a combative style. They were very aware of western training methods before Bruce.
Bruce was very important to the martial arts world. But he wasnt the first to train in these methods.
"It is not only a grappling style but a combative style."
They're all combative, imho. But Bruce was the first to combine it all: cross training, weight training, physical conditioning. He was the first to train like a modern-day MMA fighter.
This is my last post on this, because this discussion is turning into an "is not/is so" debate. Not interested.
Like I said, poor Bruce just can't win these days. :(
Ill give in. Bruce was an innovator. Bruce did take an approach every still should.
DK:
nah, you don't have to man. That's not the point really. I just thought I'd give him some props, that's all. Far from being cultish, I think.
4 Ranges,
Since you don't want to "discuss" this issue no more than there is no point in me providing more info concerning Don Draeger and weight training as well as other methods he used for physical conditioning.
All I'll say was Don Draeger was using weight training well before the 60's.
"nah, you don't have to man. That's not the point really. I just thought I'd give him some props, that's all. Far from being cultish, I think."
Cultish was prob to harsh of a word. I should have chosen a different one.
Who was or wasn't the first is not important. The contrinution and promotion a valid form of training and exercise is what is important.
One pet peeve of mine though is the editing of the BL Fighting Manual books, particularly in the area where Bruce is doing the isometric exercises and how those exercises promote 'flowing energy.'
Ok. Let's re-examine that one.
First, did you know in the 1970's Lou Ferigno was a big advocate of those type of exercises?! Actually, many bodybuilders were.
But those exercises were generally used (by some people, not all) as a way of developing cuts and definition? They would perform isolation exercises against a wall or other objects and/or flex while exhaling all the air out of their lungs. This helped develop a contest style, ripped look. (Maybe some body builder fans can add to this)
I think that those particular exercises may have been used by Bruce to help get ripped in front of the camera and not so much for functional strengh and are misrepresented in the BLFM books (which also don't mention the exhaling part)
Here's something that is kind of cool, much of the exhaling, isomentric (contraction?) training was used in Wing Chun and other forms of Kung Fu as well. (Ever notice how ripped some of those dudes in the Shaw Bros movies are?)
Genius is not overshadowed by other genius, be it past or future.
"Genius is not overshadowed by other genius, be it past or future."
100% accurate.
One of the problems is that when people are discontent with their prior JKD training (mostly always either bad training environment, disillusionment with politics, etc) they have a tendency to be negative towards "all things JKD" so that no matter what the topic is or what the context of the topic, they are negative towards it.
If its an eye jab or a groin strike, the "techniques of JKD are crap" argument rears its head.
If its weightlifting or an armbar, the "other people did it better" argument rears its head.
Now, there's nothing wrong with bringing those points up! They should be should be encouraged to be presented in a logical manner.
It is when comments are preented in an off the cuff, flippant "Ah, that sucks" manner, then, well, the argument "sucks" and really can't be built upon either pro or con and becomes devolves into a category or meritlessness (if meritlessness is an actual word, that is)
zw: I agree ^^^^