Homeslice,
You've made a few references to offense when your opponent has your back (I'm talking submission wrestling, not "regular" wrestling). I think you mentioned there were a few threads on this a while ago, but I didn't see them.
Would you mind describing some of the submissions/attacks you were talking about when your opponent's got your back? Maybe just take 2 or 3 good ones and give us a good run down?
You suck Joe!
pouting
Chip, in my opinion working a submission from there is dangerous if the top man is skilled, but....
Try basing down on one leg (first you must be facing up with him on your back) while or after driving your hips a bit lower (this will take away some of his control), keeping the chin tucked, go for the shinlock. Take a good grip on the toes of the foot and lever your elbow in the shin (remember to base down well on the leg you are attacking).
Dangers 1. A skilled man will dig the hooks in so deeply that you'll find it near impossible to slide lower between his legs or to take control of the foot. 2. If not in the right position with a very good base on the leg the top man can slide his palm under the attcking elbow , take a grip on the attacking arm with his other arm and easliy swing the free leg over into position to work for an armbar.
Next
If the man with back position (best if defender is still turtled) exposes an arm below the level of either of the defenders arms he can encircle and pinch that arm with his own. Now grip the wirst with the other hand and work the hand of the encircling arm through to take a grip on your own wrist. You are now in a double top grip. Keep everything pinched VERY tightly.
You will find that you now have great leverage and can likely pull him over your side as you shift out and roll face up onto him into a sort of crossbody position. He will be facing up, same as you.Keep a tight hold on that arm. You can now move your hips away and create the space to execute the double top from that position. Bridging back a bit helps.
Next move
Take a grip on one of his feet (hooks) with the opposite hand right to left, left to right. You will now find it easier to remove that hook than using same side hand. Pull the hook tightly and quickly up and towards the center of your chest. Now insert the other hand into a figure four position. You will now have a toehold (stopper). DO NOT try to crank this! Use the strong grip and leverage to control him as you base into the trapped leg and roll DOWN and over. You should now be facing up as he is and very low between his legs to make it hard for him to attack.
I find it dangerous to try and finsh from here but it can be done. Keep a good base on the trapped leg and finish with the toehold. I prefer to simply use this to escape.
Shit, I am just spotting this. I have to set up for my UFC party, but will put something together after my daughter's belated B-Day party tomorrow....
I only skimmed Scuffler's post, but am excited to read it tomorrow!
Thanks scuffler!
I hear ya man, I don't really want to look for these, but sometimes... a guy happens to get your back, so I thought a few attacks would be handy to learn. Thanks for the explanations.
I remember my first "grappling" class, it was a shootwrestling style; they taught us the ankle lock when the guy has your back and crosses his ankles in front of you. So when we went to roll at the end of class, I only knew one move - so I promptly gave the guy my back and started attacking his ankles! Needless to say, I was tapping a few seconds later from a nice rear choke. I couldn't understand why they would show us that technique if it didn't work. I also remember being laughed at. I've never fully recovered from the humiliation! :)
I think it's good to know a few subs from that position, ie. rolling kneebar, kimura/keylock (Sakuraba style), and the shin/ankle locks that scuffler posted above. I don't think they are necessarily very high percentage techs, but used along with good escapes and reversals, you can catch people off guard with them.
Chip, a couple of guys have reversed me from the back position a few times with a wrestling roll they call a "Peterson"? Basically, I get caught with my elbow in too deep, they trap it and dive roll so they end up facing the ceiling with their back on my chest. There might be more to it than that, but you'd know better than I. In any case, it seems like switching back and forth between a keylock grip (kimura) and that Peterson roll might be a good combo?
"Basically, I get caught with my elbow in too deep, they trap it and dive roll so they end up facing the ceiling with their back on my chest."
That's similar to what I was describing above. Just use a kimura grip instead of a simple trap to execute the roll and then you will be in position to submit with it. Try it, you'll find that the submission is self explainatory after you roll him. Just move your hips, keep your base on him and play with the kimura from that position until you get the right combo of base, bridge and drive.
OK, sorry about the delay.
I have great success w/ the Turtle, as I've said before. The two worst habits I had to deal w/ coming from Wrestling was my head position (great for Wrestling BAD for Submission Wrestling) which I still am working on and basing instead of flopping to the guard.
The head positioning got me choked a LOT. Now, I just get choked often! LOL! A lot of fellow wrestlers were making the transition and getting choked for giving their backs. When I started, I kind of knew what was coming, so was aware and ready for it. I did a LOT better than I thought and many guys afterwards said that they never had such a hard time getting someone's back.
So I thought, if they are having that much frustration when I know nothing about defending my back against subs, then why not make a mountain out of a molehill?
What I noticed is that if you don't allow them to get their hooks in, it is a hell of a time for them. They have to take an awkward postion w/ poor stability. Palms on the side of your neck and forearm across your jaw to block the choke and crossface respectively and you have virtually shutdown most of their options.
A good posture (elbows at hips & sealed to your ribs, thumbs on traps, palms on neck, pinky on ear, ankles flat or crossed), constantly blocking and removing the hooks, drawing them w/ intentional openings, etc. and the turtle becomes what the guard was way back in the day. The paradigm shift was that when you went to your back, the fight was over. BJJ disproved that.
Then that paradigm shifted. Then the new paradigm was if you gave your back, the fight was ova!!! Sakuraba came along in took a big steamy shit on that paradigm. Sak would intentionally give his back and used it very effectively.
Against Allen Goes, he gave his back, Goes got a FULL choke on. One of the best BJJ guys on earth had the full choke on, but because Sak did not let him get his hooks in and forced him to pick submission over position, Goes couldn't finish it.
Anyhow, my mind set, is that if things get hairy, I am OUT of there. I will actually flop to guard if I have to. I never rule out that option. I am always looking for Sit-outs, Hip Heists, etc. I have had REAL GOOD success w/ Granby variations and is my preference for escape or a reversal. If done right (retaing wrist control) and capture his leg in a cradle) you can turn the Granby into a braced (on your thigh) armbar.
Basically, w/ no hooks in they will either take a "Leapfrog" position, or be at your side similar to a "Par Terre" position, but keep in mind this is a BJJer, and not a Wrestler at your side. Not one of their strengths. So all of your usual wrestling options are there and will have a higher rate of success.
continued...
The worst thing that they can do is also the most common thing they do when at your side. They slap a seat belt on. As soon as that arm drapes across my back, they are gone. Scuffler's advice about CW/Kimura/DWL work's like a fucking beauty here. I have had HIGH success w/ a Cut Roll. Bringing my knees together and really close to them. Capturing the arm and rolling, bringing them with me.
Submission grappling 101 is to not put your leg in between a man in the turtle or you will become a victim of a rolling kneebar, but you would be surprised that if you keep blocking those hooks and re-positioning yourself you can fish for it.
There are a few low percentage subs like the elbow gouge on the calf w/ ankle control, or using your lower leg on his ankle(s), I would rather not have the hooks in period.
If a person get's lazy w/ his drape or put it higher on your back, or even towards your head while he is at your side, shuck it, and you can turn and get armbars and rolling triangles and even chokes by taking HIS back.
If he takes the "Leapfrog", a simple somersault or roll causes a scramble situation. You can also "Judo" flip him, if you can capture his head.
I can't emphasize enough blocking his hooks, EVEN if you have to make your neck vulnerable. Use your elbows top remove your hooks as much as possible, but if you have to use your hands. Elbows combined w/ a sort of "donkey" kick will clear any hooks. Also, use your elbows as "skewers" to spike his calf as you are clearing, adds some misery.
Figure fours instead of hooks while on your back is another problem altogether. Prevention is the order of the day.
Hey, EVERY position and technique has it's advantages and weaknesses and has a lot to do w/ your paradigm and global beliefs. I get jabs countered all the time and I am not about to give it up any time soon. The guard and turtle are similar in the sense that both were/are considered "defensive" or less dominant positions. The Guard has some nice options from there, but it has it's vulnerabilities. Same as the Turtle.
There is much more detail than this, especially w/ the posturing, but hopefully there are some things here to marinate on.
All the best,
Joe
Rockwell:
That roll is called a Peterson Roll (after Ben????) or a Cut Roll. What state are you in?
Thanks Joe and to all the rest of you guys. Good stuff.
Yeah Jeff, that's a Peterson roll. Jeff is originally from the Pittsburgh area - wrestling country, USA - so HE SHOULD DAMN WELL KNOW WHAT A PETERSON IS!!
:P
Yes, it's true...I was born and raised in Western PA...and I never wrestled.
hangs head in shame
But I was first team All-State in Volleyball, dammit! Whoohoo! Calf locks work great on me because of their prodigious and disproportionate size. :)
It's OK, we still love you.
[I'm just trying to placate you so you don't armbar me again.]
"Calf locks work great on me because of their prodigious and disproportionate size. :) "
LMAO! You are one of the few unfortunate that seem to have calf "issues". In my experience, when you start skewering calves, a person either has a bird and screams like a girl, or can't figure out why you are tickling him.
"Figure fours instead of hooks while on your back is another problem altogether."
If you let him flatten you out face down with the figure four may God have mercy on your soul :)
But, if you can remain up in turtle here are a few tips.
First, look to drop roll, landing all your weight and his too directly onto the locked foot yeah, ouch don't do this very hard if you like him at all because it will injure him. I promise.
Next if you want to be somewhat more humane try rolling face up, now bridge back hard slightly (ever so slightly) to the side of the leg which he has across. This will loosen the hold and help to prevent the choke and the crossface. Once you feel the hold loosen spin back in to face him in his guard.
Next
Again roll face up. Reach across the outer side of the knee of the leg that he has across you, place the blade of the forearm firmly against his leg/knee, grip that hand with the other and quickly and firmly pull that leg towards the middle of your chest. This should loosen or even dislodge his foot from the bend of his other knee. If the first tug doesn't work try 2 or 3 in quick order.
This one (above) also works to up a figure four guard.
I have been told that I scream more like a "ninny" than a girl, whatever that means. ;)
Michael "Bolo" Jen has a great DVD on Back Escapes, and one series in particular on how to escape the fig.4 backmount. Though it emphasizes escapes over attacks when someone has your back (which was the point of this thread), it's still very good stuff.
Scuffler:
Thanx for the tips. Some nice stuff there!
Jeff:
Everything I have seen by Jen has been nothing short of stellar. The thing I like most about his media is that he ties all the techniques together instead of having a random collection of them.