attn: shen re: americana

Underground BJJ Ground
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You are probably the biggest Americana expert I know. I actually use this frequently and get commented that they rarely see people above white belts or heavy weights actively seeking this. All thanks to you btw.

That said, curious on your opinion on WHAT it actually attacks. This probably boils down to one’s own shoulder and elbow flexibility. But, do you feel that it would actually break the elbow (UCL?) more often than the rotator cuff?

I did some experiments and if applied where you pin the wrist, bring the elbow close to uke’s ribs, rev the autobike on both your wrists with both shoulders pinned - 2 ppl I tried it on all said they felt it on their elbow, 1 on shoulder. Now, when I did the Americana “wrongly” and had their elbow along the same dotted line of their shoulder and use my elbow to pull their elbow off the ground and PUSHED their wrist in an arc TOWARDS their body, 2 said they felt it in their shoulder, and 1 said they felt it along the line of their humerus. Is the americana actually more of a modified armlock rather than a shoulder lock?

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Short answer: It depends…

Interestingly, traditionally in Judo it is considered --and by rules is supposed to be-- an ELBOW lock.

In BJJ, the way most people do it, it’s thought of more as a SHOULDER lock.

As you mention, in reality it depends on: 1) whether a person has a more flexible shoulder or a more flexible elbow, and 2) which “version” of the Americana they are doing; slight different mechanics are felt in slightly different parts of the shoulder or elbow.

I have my preferred American, but I do other, different Americanas when forced to. In term of what they “attack” or would damage, there IS variation.

Exactly the same with Kimuras. When you change little variables about where the the hand is & where the elbow is it completely changes the part of the shoulder that is effected.

–They’re all good, they all work and people all have their preferences.

Like you I have speculated about the relative amounts of damage various versions cause. But it’s just speculation and my personal “sense”. It would be cool to get some real physiologically definitive answers.

Last year, I had a legit body builder student resist 100% to show that you can always finish an American even if they grip their hands together. Guy was strong as hell, but I applied the move and a tendon in his ELBOW “snapped”. He never let go of his grip and said he felt no pain until the snap. The countless times I have used the move and shown it EVERY single person had let go. That guy was super strong but very inflexible. Everyone I had done it on up to that point said they let go due to “shoulder pressure”. This guy was very different, so it effected him differently.

Which is to say, people are variables, something you have done countless times and worked one way, may effect another person very differently. As long as the technique creates tons of leverage at the joint-- and the joint is isolated-- it’s probably gonna work out, one way or another.

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shen - Short answer: It depends...

Interestingly, in Judo it is considered --and by rules is supposed to be-- an elbow lock.

In BJJ, the way most people do it, it’s thought of more as a Shoulder lock.

In reality it depends on: 1) whether a person has a more flexible shoulder or a more flexible elbow, and 2) which “version” of the Americana they are doing; different mechanics are felt in different parts of the shoulder or elbow.

I have my preferred American, but I do other, different Americanas when I am forced to. In term of what they “attack” or would damage, there is variation.

Same with Kimuras. When you change little variables about where the the hand is & where the elbow is it completely changes the part of the shoulder that is effected.

–They’re all good, they all work. People all have their preferences.

Like you I have speculated about the relative amounts of damage various versions cause. It’s just speculation and my personal “sense”. It would be cool to get some real physiologically definitive answers.

I had a legit body builder student resist 100% to show that you can always finish an American even if they grip their hands together and a tendon in his ELBOW “snapped”. He never let go of his grip and said he felt no pain until the snap. That American Grip break WILL mess up someone’s elbow, for sure. Is the bone gonna break is the tendon gonna snap…? I don’t know, but something is going to give and it’s a very different Americana from the one I like to do that is much more shoulder oriented.

Thanks that makes sense. Curious, what DIFFERENCES in application were made in the example you gave where the body builder snapped his tendon?

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^ Sorry I re-wrote what I posted to make it more clear. My edit makes it clearer.

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In that case, with the body builder, there were NO differences. I was applying one of my favorite moves; a move I do a LOT and I felt like I understood, as well as I understand anything else.

So I was kinda SHOCKED when his elbow tendon popped like that, because I had never seen that happen. Not once. I was doing what I THOUGHT was a clear SHOULDER attack. Well, no one told his body that. Because of the way HE was built --which is unique-- it was an elbow attack, for him.

So it is with Americanas.

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shen - In that case, with the body builder, there were NO differences. I was applying one of my favorite moves; a move I do a LOT and I felt like I understood, as well as I understand anything else.

So I was kinda SHOCKED when his elbow tendon popped like that, because I had never seen that happen. Not once. I was doing what I THOUGHT was a clear SHOULDER attack. Well, no one told his body that. Because of the way HE was built --which is unique-- it was an elbow attack, for him.

So it is with Americanas.

Man that is frightening. Did you ever find out what tendon snapped?

I also find it fascinating that you’ve mostly experienced it attacking the shoulder as that has been my experience as well. When I tried it in a controlled, slow manner it seemed to affect the elbow more but that was a small data set and also I imagine when applying it in actual rolling, I am adding mechanics without even thinking that add to the wrench of the shoulder. That’s a great point I didn’t think of that our own different body types are its own variables.

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He told me, but I forgot. It was on the medial side, kinda right where you might think it would be. I wasn’t focused on it. I just felt terrible about injuring a student in such a manner.

It’s like, let’s say you’re a judoka who has a good footsweep. One day you do it “perfectly” and your opponent dislocates their knee or something. It’s kind of disconcerting to say the least.

(FWIW, to be fully accurate, this wasn’t from a normal Americana, but rather from an Americana variation when the opponent locks their hands together).

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Garth Taylor who was my first instructor, actually taught us that the Americana would cause the elbow to take damage first due it being the weaker joint compared to the shoulder. This was over 15 years ago, but it stuck with me due to it sounding counter-intuitive.

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shen - He told me, but I forgot. It was on the medial side, kinda right where you might think it would be. I wasn't focused on it. I just felt terrible about injuring a student in such a manner.

It’s like, let’s say you’re a judoka who has a good footsweep. One day you do it “perfectly” and your opponent dislocates their knee or something. It’s kind of disconcerting to say the least.

(FWIW, to be fully accurate, this wasn’t from a normal Americana, but rather from an Americana variation when the opponent locks their hands together).

Would love to know the details to this variation where they hold their hands 

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Shen, do you have any videos on americana tips?  or anything you could pass along?  

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misterw - 

Shen, do you have any videos on americana tips?  or anything you could pass along?  

Nothing great on video.

The main pointers I always give for the Americana:

Kneecap PAST you opponent’s head (i.e. higher than you opponent’s head).

Think of your positioning as closer to being North South Corner Hold, rather than Classic Side Control. (Although it IS technically Side Control because of where your opponent’s near arm is).

With your torso, fill-in your opponent’s near armpit. IF you can’t do that, then kneel on his near arm. But in either case you really need to have your opponent’s NEAR shoulder pinned flat on the ground. Both of his shoulders should be flat. He needs to be pinned. 9/10 if he’s not pinned it’s because your body is in the wrong spot.

There are a lot of different ways to “get” the arm, to chase it down, I won’t bother with those. But I always like to flex BOTH of my wrists as soon as I lock the figure–4. Flex BOTH wrists. (So many people only flex one wrist. Flex Both so there is a “bump” on the hairy part of each wrist).Then pull the arm in and apply the submission, in the usual manner. IME, 8/10 tap when you pull in and flex your wrists.

If you flex BOTH of your wrists, you completely take away his arm strength from the get go. If you try to pull everything in tight first, really strong people are going to power out in a lot of cases.

But, once more, it’s really all about position. You get your knee past his head, almost in a Corner Hold with both of his shoulders flat, that’s most of the real battle.

Last little tip is AS you apply the submission extend your spine/arch your back/drive your hips into the mat. Believe it or not THIS is what makes the difference with really tough guys.

If your body position is correct, if you have the mechanics of the figure-4 correct and you do this it just adds that little “extra” something by getting rid of the last tiny bit of “play” in the submission.

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This video talks about some of the things aboue, not all. It is probably close to 10 years old and a little out of context, because I was specifically showing a variation to deal with people who bridge high, but FWIW…

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This is a great thread. I’m learning a lot.

As a side anecdote I mostly feel Americana pressure in my shoulders but my only bad arm lock injury was a strong elbow pop from an Americana.

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so basically Shen intentionally maimed a non resisting uke based solely on his white hot burning jealousy of another man due to his impeccable physique?

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Sober - so basically Shen intentionally maimed a non resisting uke based solely on his white hot burning jealousy of another man due to his impeccable physique?

There was a little bit more too it but, basically, yes.

1 Like
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haha…the upshot of this is I did start watching a bunch of your self defense videos. I figure if I’m going to learn self defense…it’s going to be from the guy that maliciously injures his uke. osss

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Sober - haha...the upshot of this is I did start watching a bunch of your self defense videos. I figure if I'm going to learn self defense...it's going to be from the guy that maliciously injures his uke. osss

I have injured COUNTLESS ukes --especially children.

Like I say to the kid’s class when they misbehave, “What makes you think I won’t pop your sh!t…?”

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I ALWAYS feel it first in the elbow. It definitely depends on the person where they feel it. The way it was explained to me was, if a person has a balanced shoulder musculature and flexibility, they'll feel it in the ebow first

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nogidavid - 

I ALWAYS feel it first in the elbow. It definitely depends on the person where they feel it. The way it was explained to me was, if a person has a balanced shoulder musculature and flexibility, they'll feel it in the ebow first

Interesting. Certainly in Judo, that was the idea.

I am more the opposite; I have super tight shoulders and don’t think I have ever felt it first in my elbow that I recall.

As they say, the shoulder is sort of like a circus tent and the stability comes from tension of it being pulled in every direction simultaneously. Really easy to have an imbalance in one of those directions and probably why so many people feel the shoulder first.

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Link from Shen:

https://youtu.be/0MP9U8xGrD8