Probably just a bit frat.
MMA is often thought of as basically a replica of unarmed 1-on-1 combat, or a street fight. If that's the case, then the judges are basically the guys who stand around the fight and later go and tell their friends who beat the crap out of who, in case no one got knocked out or choked/broken up: First & foremost, they will describe who caused the more damage, second who controlled his opponent, and that's practically it. No other consistent criteria.
Obviously, most streets are made without padding. Even grass is often less forgiving than a mat. Unlike in the cage – which again, is originally supposed to replicate a street fight – in a real street fight in a real street, any takedown is likely to cause damage. A lot of them will actually end the fight right there; A high amplitude throw or a high velocity hip toss are probably the most dangerous – and fight ending – techniques you can use in the street. Those, maybe along with a really stubborn mata-leo.
The fact that takedowns rarely cause damage in the cage shouldn't take our eyes of the fact that the cage is just about the only place that this is so. The way I see it, big, high velocity takedowns – not subtle trips or single leg drag downs – should definitely count and earn points in any rule system. In a real fight the big throw might have been enough by itself, and left no room for judges anyway. In fact, if Randleman met Fedor on the parking lot of a bar, I doubt that even he would have been able to recover from the randleplex for the win. This is a sporting event and not a blood bath – and that's why we watch it – but these throws should at least be given great considerations to who won that round. It doesn't really matter if no control was established afterwards, or no damage given with ground and pound. The receiver of the takedown is lucky to have received no damage, and be able to continue and finish it before it gets to the judges. So even if he just stood up immediately after being dumped, the big throw itself should be taken into consideration just as much as a knockdown strike (imo).
Again, since not all takedowns are equal, I say take into consideration only high amplitude throws or a judo/grecoroman hard hip/shoulder tosses.
Although I love grappling, I can't say the same for failed submission attempts. In other words, I don't feel that a failed attempt, no matter how close you came to finish, should earn you points. What damage did I cause if I got someone in a guillotine and he escaped? None. Well, maybe I tired my opponent up a bit. But if he did get tired from my hold or his escape – I should be able to capitalize on it later, and that should be my reward. Not points, 'cause I didn't cause any damage. If I capitalized on it later, good for me. If not, it shouldn't do me no good (btw, the only exception is that "saved by the bell" failed submissions should still count for a lot).
That's it, turned out to be a real frat
What has a better chance to end a fight...
1. Getting a takedown, not advancing position, being controlled and not able to punch, thus, just laying on top of your opponent for a round. Or..
2. The person on bottom putting his opponent in a real tight triangle. Opponent, very tired, barely gets out right at the end of the round.
u got it backwards
anything that incentivizes excitement and action should be rewarded
/thread
i'd count a sub attempt if its really close. like charutos triangle on hughes. i woulda tapped, he was in deep shit, had to work very hard to escape, and it took something out of him like punches do. same deal with grays kimura on huerta. when u have a near sub, u have octagon control.
A takedown is no different than a sweep or escape. There is an IMMENSE amount of BJJ bias here.
A takedown gets you from a neutral or inferior position to a better one. It's a positional CHANGE. A sweep or escape gets you from a neutral or inferior position to a better one. No one bitches and states "I am sick of these guys sweeping/escaping into a better position but doing nothing with it." BECAUSE they are biased BJJ nancies.
What happens after a positional change has nothing to do with what caused it. If the fight is boring after the takedown, sweep or escape, it means that the fighter isn't that offensive from the NEW position or the fighter that got reversed has a GOOD defense. Enough to snuff out the other fighter's offense.
Having said that, my mind has been changed from some of discussions here about submission attempts. I've always felt that a fighter isn't rewarded for failed strikes or failed takedowns so why should he be rewarded for failed submissions? Failed ANYTHING. I now feel that it's the wrong question. Why should a fighter be rewarded for a lazy guard? Should a fighter with an active guard...working sweeps, stand-ups, and submissions be rewarded for his effort. YES.
Beeza - What has a better chance to end a fight...
1. Getting a takedown, not advancing position, being controlled and not able to punch, thus, just laying on top of your opponent for a round. Or..
2. The person on bottom putting his opponent in a real tight triangle. Opponent, very tired, barely gets out right at the end of the round.
1. If it's on concrete, the BIG takedown will probably end it right there. There wouldn't be any controlling after.
2. "Saved by the bell" should definitely count. Escaping just before the bell, I wouldn't mind weighing that in
No one asked me, but points should be given for:
1. Knockdowns
2. Damage
3. Big Takedowns
4. Opponent "saved by the bell" from a submission or high possibility of fight ending ground and pound.
And That's it. All of the rest that happens in a fight - transitions, positions and what have you - are just means to an end. They are ways to deliver damage or submissions, but give you nothing by themselves.
If the other guy knocked me down once, and then I continued to control him for the whole round without giving any damage, he should win that round.
Only if all of the points criteria (damage, knockdowns, etc.) are seen as equal should control be taken into consideration in the scoring.
Do this and utilize 10-10,10-8 and 10-7 rounds, and I'm happy with MMA judging.
Upgrade the presentation and allocate few hundred thousands dollar purse for each event, to be divided to fight finishers (meaning that if you the only guy finishing his fight you'll get the whole purse), and I'm totally happy with MMA.
I'm really happy with it as it is.
logic fail...takedown is the very definition of means to an end
goku - logic fail...takedown is the very definition of means to an endThe takedown leads to a superior postiion. That superior position is the means to an end, no? Excepting slams. If a guy leaps into guard is he equally held to your standard? Wouldn't it be fair to say that it's the position you get into that is the means to an end?
Oh and please don't let our "history" get in the way of a serious discussion Goku. I know you hate my guts, but I see no reason why we can't discuss opinions civilly.
I agree with OP.
Nothing like a hip toss or lateral drop on concrete ...
People are losing focus of the "martial" aspect of MMA and only looking at points & rules. Takedowns/throws are extremely valuable in real self defense!
My point is that high amplitude takedowns and hip tosses differ from escapes and your everyday sweeps is because they are damage causing weapons
tglaser - I agree with OP.
Nothing like a hip toss or lateral drop on concrete ...
People are losing focus of the "martial" aspect of MMA and only looking at points & rules. Takedowns/throws are extremely valuable in real self defense!
Listen to this man, he is old and wise and rarely speaks
Slams and high amplitude throws are the most exciting and potentially devastating techniques in MMA, there's a huge difference between just being taken down and being picked up and driven into the mat.
Colt Seavers -I don't have an argument, or tried to tilt anything in my favor. Matt Hughes type slams win everytime, and sloppy sub attempts do not earn points. However, I believe there is room for scoring serious sub attempts and less importance should be placed on a guy/girl who gets a takedown and does not advance position, punch, and just lays in the guard.Beeza - What has a better chance to end a fight...
1. Getting a takedown, not advancing position, being controlled and not able to punch, thus, just laying on top of your opponent for a round. Or..
2. The person on bottom putting his opponent in a real tight triangle. Opponent, very tired, barely gets out right at the end of the round.
Oooh oooh the "Let's tilt the argument in my favor" game! Let my try:
What has a better chance to end a fight...
1. Picking up the guy and executing a Matt Hughes slam on his head and knocking him loopy.
2. Putting a guy in a "tight" triangle that wasn't as tight as you thought because he never went out and easily escaped.
This is fun!
A locked sub should count like it does in shooto, when they call a catch.
ausgepicht -so, in other words, a takedown is even worse than a means to an ends because it is a meeans to a means to an end?goku - logic fail...takedown is the very definition of means to an endThe takedown leads to a superior postiion. That superior position is the means to an end, no? Excepting slams. If a guy leaps into guard is he equally held to your standard? Wouldn't it be fair to say that it's the position you get into that is the means to an end?
I very much disagree.
Like others have said: A submission that is on long enough for the ref to recognize it and needs to be defended with a significant amount of movement and/or two hands needs to be recognised like half a knockdown.
Takedowns suck. I think MMAer should start from the knees.
Let's say I fight someone in the street. He roughs me up a bit standing for a minute, bloodies me up, and gets a knockdown from a right cross. He proceeds to my guard, where I control him for five whole minutes, almost submit him once and even get a sweep. Then the crowd breaks us up - hence, time up.
Who won? I love grappling and I say he. Damage counts more.
Now let's say I fight a black belt in the street. Somehow I manage to take him down hard, and he's out or has a broken arm and clavicle. Does the fact that he can submit me with ease matters? Mats are more forgiving than most surfaces, and thank heavens they invented them because they make the sport possible. But slams should always count.
Now let's say I'm probably in jail, because I just fought two guys in the street, and slammed one on his head.
Again, thank heavens for MMA